REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 45, Issue 24 - Changing from fixed to CS prop

Mon Feb 4 18:50:20 CST 2008

I had an electric constant speed MT prop on my Std RG. I really liked it. If
you switched to one, you have only to put in a 2x3 inch control head on your
panel and run 2 wires back to the prop. You set the dial to the rpm you want
and the controller keeps it there. Just a thought. 

On the down side, I completely agree with the complaints voiced about MT. I
ruined several in various mishaps and customer service was slow and
expensive. (I may have the dubious distinction of buying more of these from
MT for a single plane than anyone else)

I bought an Aerocomposite this time and will let you know how it works out.
So far, I am 2 months behind the promised delivery date and my prop is "in
assembly". They then ship it from Connecticut to California for final
finishing and paint at American Propeller and then back across the country
to me in Pennsylvania. 

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Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 7:26 PM
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Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 45, Issue 24

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  engine size & CS prop (Lou Stedman)

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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:25:27 -0500
From: "Lou Stedman" <stedmanlou at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: engine size & CS prop
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <002c01c8678d$9b7c1870$0201a8c0 at owner8egdx0kyo>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Just out of curiosity, what is the size and pitch you have for the IO-360?
Any one who is flying a Catto on a IO-360, I would love to hear what you are
using. When I  purchased my Vel, it came with two three blade Cattos. They
are both the same, 64-72. My problem is that I am not too happy with the RPM
I get on takeoff. The best I see is about 2300. If my engine is rated a 180
HP at 2700 RPM, then I am only getting about 75% power on takeoff. Is that
pretty normal? I talked to Craig Catto and he suggested that I send one back
to him to take out a little of the pitch but then I would have to run at a
higher RPM to get the same cruise. Just wondering what others are using.
Thanks for your input.

Lou Stedman
Velocity N7044Q
Olean, NY
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Greg Poole 
  To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' 
  Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:18 PM
  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: engine size & CS prop

  Grigore,

  What you have just asked about is EXACTLY what I am doing (thought I may
have said this in an earlier email on this topic). While there are some very
expensive fixed pitched props available, most are 18 to 25% (estimate) of
the cost of a constant speed unit such as the MT - depending on whether you
select 2 or 3 blade fixed.

  I managed to obtain a second hand (never installed) Craig Catto 3 blade
with the IO-360 with extension unit that I was able to obtain from a US
based builder abandoning his 173 Velocity Elite project and have heard
nothing but good reports of the Catto prop in terms of performance and
strength. Once flying - dollars permitting, I will be then looking to get
one of the "other brands" of CS prop to get the best performance from such
an efficient airframe as possessed by our Velocitys.

  Greg 

   greg at pooledresources.com.au 

  From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Grigore Rosu
  Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2008 09:01
  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: engine size & CS prop

  Greg,

  How dificult/expensive would it be to transit from a fixed pitch to a CS
propeller?  In other words, suppose that in order to get quickly in the air,
one chooses a fixed pitch propeller (assuming they are easier to get, though
I'm not sure about that; they are obviously cheper though).  Then in 2-3
years, suppose that one realizes that one would really like to have a CS
prop.  Is it difficult/expensive to switch?  My question is probably very
silly; I really have never installed a prop.  I'm just looking for options.

  Best,

  Grigore

  On Feb 4, 2008 3:28 PM, Greg Poole <greg at pooledresources.com.au> wrote:

  For the same reasons I gave for going with the bigger engine, I would - if
the budget allows it - then go with a constant speed prop. I believe it is
generally acknowledged that a  correctly set up CS prop will enable you a
much wider performance envelope than what is possible going fixed pitch and
will consequently get you up to flying speed much faster than most fixed
pitches which tend to compromise  one end or the other (usually both!).

  While the factory has favoured MT props to date, they are not universally
popular amongst Velocity drivers due to high service and purchase cost and
very soft blades which have proven easily damaged.as a consequence, many of
us await reports on other brands such as Vesta (how's it going Dave Dent?)
and the one Milt is promoting.. 

  Greg in Sydney

   greg at pooledresources.com.au 

  From Grigore Rosu

  The recent messages on this list (for which I warmly thank you) made me
switch my vague opinion to a Lyc 200HP engine.  Would an MT propeller work
fine with it?  I'd like to keep things simple and safe for this airplane,
and I saw lots of complaints on propellers on this list.  I wouldn't mind
picking a fixed pitch propeller either (to be honest, in our club we only
have fixed pitch propellers, so I have close to no experience with variable
pitch ones).

  Grigore

  On Feb 4, 2008 11:33 AM, Lawrence J. Epstein, MD <ljepstein at hotmail.com>
wrote:

  It all depends on your time frame. If you are a year out from engine
install, then you have more options. 

  Soon after delivery of the 1st production run, DH will have a "Firewall
forward (back)" kit available for the Velocity, which according to Doug (who
I spent about an Hour on the phone with a few months ago), should be very
complete. Therefore, I wouldn't expect it to be a whole lot more
"experimental" than the Lycosaurus.  

  The first production run (awaiting delivery) includes many velocity
builders (not to mention all the prototype work to date), so there should be
good experience by the time your engine would be delivered.

  If you need an engine in the next 12-18 months, then I would go with the
Lyco.

  Larry Epstein

  -----Original Message-----
  From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Grigore Rosu

  Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 10:59 AM
  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list

  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: tools, tools, and tools again

  Dear Larry,

  I was and still am a strong supporter of DH engines.  When I ordered my
kit, I was 100% sure that I'd install a DH engine in my airplane.  In the
meanwhile though, after realizing how much time everything takes, I changed
my mind and decided to go for a standard and well-tested configuration.
There are many much more experienced builders than me who would be happy to
go for an inovation like that, because they have a much beter big-picture
than I do.

  My hidden (from wife) plan is to finish this SEFG and then, while flying
it, to start building a new Velocity airplane, "the airplne of my drams",
that time as an "experienced" builder.  That will definitely have a diesel
engine (also, I intend to eventually move back to Europe, where diesel is a
lot cheaper).

  Grigore

  On Feb 4, 2008 8:16 AM, Lawrence J. Epstein, MD <ljepstein at hotmail.com>
wrote:

  Since you the have the luxury of some time before you make an engine
choice (I lead a very luxurious life, I started my project 12 ? years ago),
you should at least take a close look at the Deltahawk diesel. With any
luck, the production engines will be delivered and flying by the time you
are ready. I won't go in to the advantages here (many pages of discussion in
the archives as well as their web page), but it has been engineered & tested
primarily on a Velocity and as Avgas gets more problematic, a diesel looks
more & more advantageous.

  Larry Epstein

  173 FGE

  -----Original Message-----
  From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Grigore Rosu
  Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 8:59 AM
  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
  Subject: REFLECTOR: tools, tools, and tools again

  Dear Reflectorists,

  Thank you everybody for the valuable input on tools and the engine.
Following your advise, I'll most likely go with the Lycoming 200HP, when the
time comes.  My original 160HP choice was based exclusively on range, but I
see the points you made, so probably in this case less range is OK for the
increase in power.  I would still be grateful for an answer on the prop arc
diameter ... or is the general advice to use a little cap chain and not
worry about positioning?

  Regarding tools, I have just made another order with Aircraft Spruce;
another $200.  I think I spent close to $2,000 so far on tools; I had almost
no tools when I started my project.

  For those who are just starting their project, please do not
underestimate:

  1) the number and cost of tools that you will need for your airplane;
better be realistic than  have surprizes.  Of course, if you can borrow
tools from a friend or another Velocity builder that is great; but I am
totally isolated in a university city (Urbana-Champaign) and my friends only
know how to write computer programs and solve mathematical equations; never
heard of something called "pipe flaring" :-)

  2) the amount of extra-, initially unexpected time you'll need to spend
scratching your head or waiting for tools/materials.  Give each subproject a
generous estimate, then triple that.  I started fitting the pilot side lower
strake on January 18 and I was convinced that I would close the top strake
by the end of January if I give it all my time/energy.  There were the
"unexpected" fuel senders, which slowed me down a few good days:
"unexpected" because they were not even mentioned in the manual, and slowed
me down because I had to order and wait for them, then learn how to install,
ask, etc.  Well, now is Feb 4 and I still have to wait for the "unexpected"
finger strainers, the AN fittings needed for the change in plans, etc.
Assuming I receive these by Thursday and did not forget to order some
important little thing which will delay me one more week, then I may have a
chance to close the strake by the end of the week, say Feb 10.  Applying the
reasoning above, that prob!
 ably means Feb 18 or so, making it about 1 month of work for one strake
only.  There is this Jeffco thing, though, which I have never worked with
and which has no proper webpage with detailed explanations on how to use; I
can only optimistically hope that there will be no other "unexpected" issues
with it ... though there always were ...

  Grigore

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