REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
Tom Falls
tomfalls6 at gmail.com
Tue Jun 7 09:45:37 CDT 2011
Good point Al, I'll make that adjustment.
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures at cox.net> wrote:
> Tom;
>
>
>
> Looks good – except for specimen #4. Why would you want it thoroughly
> sanded if you were not going to coat it? You would coat it with
> epoxy/cabosil; or just plain epoxy, and leave a smooth surface.
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Tom Falls
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:48 AM
> *To:* 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
>
>
>
> Thanks John/Jim
>
>
>
> I sanded and pre-coated all the tank parts with an epoxy/cabosil mixture
> and then sanded again before install. I then consulted with Scott Swing on
> an idea I had and got the thumbs up to proceed. The idea was to apply the
> Rhino 9700 within 12-14 hours of installing the BID lay-ups on the tank bulk
> heads and baffles. The thought is to eliminate the arduous sanding task that
> I knew I couldn’t do a quality job of in all those tight, hard to get at
> spaces. The ideal scenario would be to get the coating on after 6 hours of
> BID curing, but that would make for a very long day. It took my wife and I
> six hours to get all bulk heads and baffles installed (right strake only).
>
>
>
> With that said, I will do a test with a number of 100 gram fiber glass
> samples in E10 mogas, all coated with the Rhino 9700, leaving a small
> portion of the fiberglass uncoated:
>
> 1. Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, cured 2-3 days then thoroughly sanded.
>
> 2. Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, thoroughly sanded and then BID applied
> and allowed to cure for 14 hours before coating (no peel ply or sanding).
>
> 3. Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, thoroughly sanded and then BID applied
> and allowed to cure for 4 days before coating (no peel ply or sanding).
>
> 4. As a control; Pre- coated with epoxy/cab and thoroughly sanded
> but WITHOUT any Rhino 9700 coating.
>
>
>
> My right tank is a combination of samples 1 & 2. With experience building
> the right tank and better planning, the left tank will hopefully be coated
> in something less than 14 hours. Sample 3 will be a worse-case scenario for
> my install process, and sample 4 should help those that have no coating at
> all. It will be a couple of days before I can get started making the samples
> and testing will last many weeks (months?) with measurements taken probably
> weekly.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jim Agnew
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:33 AM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
>
>
> Many years ago I coated my tanks with Jefco and to this day it looks like
> new. However, I carefully sanded all of the tank including the baffles surfaces
> and wiped them down with *denatured* *alcohol* and let them dry. The
> Jefco was mixed in 16 oz cups and its working life was about 15 minutes at
> the high Florida temperatures. I didn't use a brush I dumped the cup in the
> tank and used a plastic spreader to spread it around so the layer was thick.
> I did test strips for a month in straight alcohol with no observed
> problems. It worked very well.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> James F. Agnew
>
> Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
>
> Tampa, FL
>
> Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
>
>
>
> *From:* John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com>
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 4, 2011 9:09 AM
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
>
> Tom,
>
> You should weigh the fiberglass before and after to check for weight
> gain/loss. The scale you use should read down to 1% of the sample weight.
> Also, the issue may not be just the effect on the coating, but on it's
> adherence to the fiberglass. To evaluate this I suggest you leave part of
> the fiberglass uncoated to see if the mogas gets in between the coating
> and the fiberglass.
>
> John
>
> Tom Falls wrote:
>
> Thanks John, that is reassuring. Reading that some on this list are having
> trouble with the Jeffco after 5-6 years is a concern, especially after I
> just finished (yesterday!!) completely coating the right strake with the
> Rhino 9700. I think I?ll take a piece of cured fiberglass and coat it with
> the Rhino 9700 and then submerse it in 10% ethanol mogas and leave it
> there for weeks/months just to be sure. I?ll report back what I find.
>
> Tom
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *John Dibble
>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2011 8:14 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
>
> Weight gain (or loss) is a measure of the effect of the ethanol. Zero gain
> means no effect and that is ideal. Weight gain typically results in a
> softening of the material. Weight loss means the ethanol is removing
> something, typically plasticizers, making the material more brittle. The
> chart also lists gasohol, which represents a range of ethanol/gasoline
> blends, 10% being most common. Since no weight gain is indicated, it
> appears that 10% ethanol should not be a problem.
>
> John
>
> Tom Falls wrote:
>
> I am currently in the process of coating my tanks with Rhino 9700 (formerly
> Jeffco ). Although I have no intention of using fuels with ethanol, I do
> plan on using 98 octane and 100LL. Attached is the data sheet for Rhino
> 9700. Under chemical resistance, pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) is listed with
> a 6.9% weight gain after 3 weeks. I don?t know if this means a failure or
> not . . . . but again it?s 100% Ethanol. Any chemical types out there that
> can tell us what ?% weight gain? really means?
>
> Tom
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Velocity
> *Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2011 2:02 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
>
> I had a very similar experience with pump gas. Melted my optical sump
> sensor
>
> and pealed the jefco in the sump. I could not tell you if it was the
>
> Ethanol because they put so much crap in our gas
>
> here in Chicago. But some thing in the gas station pump gas
>
> is not good for our tanks.
>
> The epoxy was not effected by the gas just the jefco pealed. Makes me
> question the Jeffco
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
>
> *To:* 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2011 11:38 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
>
> I had a similar problem as Chris- although I did not put any mogas in my
> mains, I had my sump filled with 89 pump gas for engine testing, and after
> about 6 months, I noticed gas weeping from the bottom- so I pulled it and
> the Jeffco had become soft and pasty- not sure what happened there, I
> re-built the sump using a new batch of Jeffco, but have been running on
> 100ll since just to make sure there is no problem?.. I will try the auto
> fuel again at some point?
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Laurence Coen
>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2011 11:16 AM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
>
> Peter,
>
> You are not the first to warn people about EZ poxy and ethanol and I doubt
> that you will be the last. I refer you to Al Gietzens' email where he has
> 6 years experiences with ethanol containing fuel in his EZ poxy tanks
> without a problem. I personally tested a strip sealed in a container with
> denatured alcohol with no apparent effect after 6 months. Despite all the
> warnings, I have never seen or herd of any documented evidence that would
> indicate that EZ poxy is adversely affected by ethanol containing fuel.
> If you have a reference, please share it with the group.
>
> Larry Coen
>
> N136LC
>
> *From:* Peter Braswell <peter.braswell at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2011 10:26 AM
>
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel Tank Questions
>
> Mark,
>
> That almost certainly sounds like the EZ poxy that ships with the kit and
> NOT Jeffco (the really good stuff).
>
> My understanding is that the EZ poxy holds up just fine with aviation fuel
> but I'd be VERY hesitant to use it in conjunction with fuel containing
> ethanol.
>
> I may have missed, but are you flying an auto conversion?
>
> Peter
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out:
>
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>
>
> My blog: www.icekreamkoan.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Markinchampions ?
> markinchampions at gmail.com? wrote:
>
> It appears as a dark brownish red color.
>
> Sent from my iPod.
>
>
> On Jun 3, 2011, at 10:21 AM, ?Al Gietzen? ?ALVentures at cox.net? wrote:
>
> I don't know what was used. I didn't build it and I'm not that familiar
> with fiberglass.
>
> EZ-poxy is the epoxy system that Velocity sent with the kits; and is most
> likely what was used. Shine a light in the tank ? should be a
> yellow/brown/gold color if EZ-poxy, gray if Jeffco.
>
> Al
>
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