REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
David Ullman
ullman at robustdecisions.com
Wed Dec 6 17:48:53 CST 2006
Just last week Scott Swing told me that the Canard airfoil is not standard
but was developed through much testing. He told me this in response to my
desire to build a computer based aerodynamic model of the Velocity (in my
free time when I am not building the airplane, Ha!).
What troubles me is that after a builder puts on a coat of filler and sands
it smooth, exactly what airfoil does he have? The surface shape could vary
by an 1/8" or so and change the characteristics of the foil. I don't see
anywhere that Velocity gives a template for the final shape of the canard or
the main airfoil.
Any thoughts on this?
Dr. David G. Ullman
Robust Decisions Inc
1655 NW Hillcrest Drive
Corvallis, Oregon, 97330 USA
Phone 541-758-5088
Direct Phone: 541-754-3609
FAX 866-898-1007
ullman at robustdecisions.com
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of reflector-request at tvbf.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:29 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 31, Issue 17
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing (Richard J. Gentil)
2. Re: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing (davedent at comcast.net)
3. Re: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing (Ann DaSilva)
4. Re: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing (Chuck Jensen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:13:36 -0500
From: "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <45771660.9060003 at naples-air-center.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks Jon,
Learn something new every day. ;-)
Richard
Jon Matcho wrote:
> The Cozy IV wing is the same airfoil as the Long-EZ, just mounted
> differently, and more outboard from centerline than that of the
> Long-EZ. In that sense, it is certainly a different wing, although
> the airfoils are identical.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Richard J. Gentil
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:41 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
>
> Jon,
>
> It was my unerstanding that the Cozy IV had a larger wing which was
> closer to the size of the Velo SE.
>
> Richard
>
> Jon Matcho wrote:
>> Richard J. Gentil wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You will find the Cozy III will have the same wing as the Long EZ.
>>> The Cozy IV and the Velo SE are a larger wing then the Long EZ.
>>>
>>
>> The Cozy IV has the same exact airfoil as the Cozy III and Long-EZ, but
>> the mounting has been changed with the Cozy IV. I'm wondering (for
>> historical purposes) if the same is true with the early/first Velocity
>> aircraft designs -- the ones that evolved from the Long-EZ design.
>> Anyone know?
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> Jon Matcho
>> Building Cozy Mark IV+
>> www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho
>> www.canardzone.com/forum
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:47:08 +0000
From: davedent at comcast.net
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
To: amillin at sbcglobal.net, Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
<reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID:
<120620061947.26760.45771E3B000E02A70000688822007348309B020A0B0A900E0B at comca
st.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I just got off the phone with one of my buddies down at Scaled. He's been
there from the start. We talked about this subject. I have had the LongEZ
and the CozyIV and the Velocity.
I have worked all styles of the Velocity. All but the VeryEZ mount the
wings the same. Just the spar design had changed. From box to web design on
the Velocity. The airfoils on the LongEZ and the Cozy's are the same. Nat
Puffer pays the roylities on it. The Velocitys changed a lot and still
needs help. But I dough if that will ever happen. The canard has changed
the most on all of them.
The EZ and the Cozy's are Eppler airfoils,GU canards. The first airfoil on
the VeryEZ came from Dale(Bob)Reed of NASA the lifting body engineer. Burt
tried for a number of days to get his off the ground before Dale had him
change to the GU. Then it got off the ground. This flew for a number of
years with great success.
Later the Roncz RII45MS came out for the LongEZ and man what a difference.
Less rain effect with the RII45MS. Very high lift. The MS stands for Mike
and Sally, Mevill that is. This is one of the biggest problems that cause
the deep stalls. The wing would stall before the canard. So it's mandatory
to install the vortilons. Don't fly without them if using this airfoil on
the canard.
For less drag a canard with the Roncz design having dihedral in it gave less
airframe drag. This done,would allow smoother air flow over the wings
allowing less turbulence to destroy lift. This is why some EZ guys have
bent front wings. Also the nose doesn't slam down when out of airspeed but
it does come down a lot faster on touch down. You gain some airspeed out of
it as well. Not much but if you are a racer every knot counts. Don't even
think about changing the Velocity wings or canard without consulting
Velocity, this would be very bad, and puts you very deep water without a
life vest.
Dave
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Andy Millin" <amillin at sbcglobal.net>
> Velocity went through an extensive test and development program to remove
> deep stall. The result was a modified wing shape for the Velocity.
>
> Andy
>
> _____
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of John Tvedte
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:23 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
>
>
> It would be interesting to know if it is based on the GU vs Roncz canard
>
> _____
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:15 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
>
>
> As far as I know the the main wing airfoil is the same on all the canards,
> EZ, Cozy, Velocity...
>
> I'm not sure about the canard airfoil..
>
> Scott
>
> Jon Matcho wrote:
>
> Richard J. Gentil wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> You will find the Cozy III will have the same wing as the Long EZ.
>
> The Cozy IV and the Velo SE are a larger wing then the Long EZ.
>
>
>
>
>
> The Cozy IV has the same exact airfoil as the Cozy III and Long-EZ, but
>
> the mounting has been changed with the Cozy IV. I'm wondering (for
>
> historical purposes) if the same is true with the early/first Velocity
>
> aircraft designs -- the ones that evolved from the Long-EZ design.
>
> Anyone know?
>
>
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
> Jon Matcho
>
> Building Cozy Mark IV+
>
> www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho
>
> www.canardzone.com/forum
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> -
>
> The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public
opinion
> cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it
> produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure.
>
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
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From: "Andy Millin" <amillin at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:30:50 +0000
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:16:18 -0500
From: "Ann DaSilva" <samann1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <DHEBIOGGKFGEEONNDCPCCEIMEPAA.samann1 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have a very early Vel. and had a hanger partner with a Long Eze I
defenitly know that the wings are not the same. As far as the canards go
they are not even close both in profile and size.
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:15 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
As far as I know the the main wing airfoil is the same on all the canards,
EZ, Cozy, Velocity...
I'm not sure about the canard airfoil..
Scott
Jon Matcho wrote:
Richard J. Gentil wrote:
You will find the Cozy III will have the same wing as the Long EZ.
The Cozy IV and the Velo SE are a larger wing then the Long EZ.
The Cozy IV has the same exact airfoil as the Cozy III and Long-EZ, but
the mounting has been changed with the Cozy IV. I'm wondering (for
historical purposes) if the same is true with the early/first Velocity
aircraft designs -- the ones that evolved from the Long-EZ design.
Anyone know?
Jon
Jon Matcho
Building Cozy Mark IV+
www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho
www.canardzone.com/forum
_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
--
-
The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion
cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it
produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure.
Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:29:46 -0500
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen at dts9000.com>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B3287118 at lucky.dts.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The EZ canards that had this lift-loss in rain report they see water
pooling on top of the aft part of the canard just ahead of the elevator,
though addition of VGs to keep the air attached seems to sweep away the
water and prevents the loss of lift. I can report that I've never seen
water pooling and nor experienced loss of lift in the rain, so Danny's
NASA engineer must have done his job for the Velo.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Ron Brown
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:02 PM
To: amillin at sbcglobal.net; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
And as I understand it, Danny Maher also commissioned a NASA engineer to
develop a canard airfoil that would not loose lift in the rain. It
works - I have never had a problem - even in a very heavy rain.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Millin <mailto:amillin at sbcglobal.net>
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
Velocity went through an extensive test and development program
to remove deep stall. The result was a modified wing shape for the
Velocity.
Andy
________________________________
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of John Tvedte
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:23 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
It would be interesting to know if it is based on the GU vs
Roncz canard
________________________________
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:15 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Velocity SE wing vs. Long-EZ wing
As far as I know the the main wing airfoil is the same on all
the canards, EZ, Cozy, Velocity...
I'm not sure about the canard airfoil..
Scott
Jon Matcho wrote:
Richard J. Gentil wrote:
You will find the Cozy III will have the same
wing as the Long EZ.
The Cozy IV and the Velo SE are a larger wing
then the Long EZ.
The Cozy IV has the same exact airfoil as the Cozy III
and Long-EZ, but
the mounting has been changed with the Cozy IV. I'm
wondering (for
historical purposes) if the same is true with the
early/first Velocity
aircraft designs -- the ones that evolved from the
Long-EZ design.
Anyone know?
Jon
Jon Matcho
Building Cozy Mark IV+
www.canardzone.com/members/JonMatcho
www.canardzone.com/forum
_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
Check old archives:
http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
--
-
The only security of all is in a free press. The force of
public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed.
The agitation it produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep
the waters pure.
Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
________________________________
_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
Check old archives:
http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
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