REFLECTOR: Trailing Edge Aileron Fence and door open emergency procedures
Greg Poole
reflector@tvbf.org
Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:24:49 +1000
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Hi Scott,
You're flying & obviously a motivated soul....when you going to put this =
information to the test and report back to all us curious builders? ;^ ) =
Greg in Sydney.
STD RG Elite
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Scott Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>
To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Trailing Edge Aileron Fence and door open =
emergency procedures
> Rodney,
>=20
> Thanks a bunch for the info and pics!
>=20
> Scott
>=20
> Rodney Brim wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Sorry I'm a month late in responding. Am fighting cancer and low =
energy and
> > don't get to the plane much to measure or take pictures. But I =
recently did
> > and here they are. I also looked up my original research. The =
take-off
> > roll was reduced by over 20% not 15%. Actually at the time I =
measured it,
> > it was roughly 22%.
> >=20
> > Before I do the numbers and picture story I want to suggest you all =
add a
> > comment to your emergency procedures.
> >=20
> > 1. If the door pops open fully, DO NOT TURN AWAY FROM THE OPEN DOOR.
> >=20
> > If you, like I, ever have that experience. You will start a rapid =
roll away
> > from the door to an inverted position. For me the door opened =
slightly as I
> > departed... with the gear coming up it pressurized the cabin and =
pops the
> > door wide open, and then if you turn away from the door (to head =
back to the
> > airport) it wants to roll and spin into the ground, in my case at =
about 200
> > feet. Opposite rudder and aileron will hold you at a 60 degree bank =
angle,
> > but won't get you out of the fix as you're going to stall in that
> > configuration. There is a way out, but that's another conversation. =
OK
> > back to trailing edge fence.
> >=20
> > I've attached a couple of pictures. They are located on the inboard =
side of
> > the ailerons. They point directly into the wind. If you are =
testing, you
> > can cut them out of plexiglass clipboards and hot glue them in =
place. I did
> > for all of my testing. I also wrote this up in an article in =
Velocity Views
> > a couple of years ago.
> >=20
> > Specs:
> > 1. Position. They are located on the inside of the aileron, but =
face
> > directly into the wind, not the angle of the aileron.
> > 2. They extend back from the trailing edge 1.5 inches, and 5 inches =
above
> > the trailing edge and 2.5 inches below.
> > 3. From that position the top and bottom dive into the wing. The =
length of
> > the top (from wing to end of trailing edge) is 12 inches. The =
bottom is 9
> > inches, but note that's because the trailing edge of the stall fence =
is not
> > perpendicular to the ground. Instead of dropping at a 90 degree =
angle at
> > the top (which may be a preferable design), I slopped mine forward =
at a 70
> > degree angle.
> >=20
> > |---- 12 "------------------ 70
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > |--- 9" ----------|
> >=20
> >=20
> > That's roughly the shape in a text format, except the bottom slopes =
up to
> > meet the underside of the wing and the top slopes down to meet the =
top. But
> > both of those may be better served by having a longer run into the =
wing.
> > Klaus was the one who helped me with this and it wasn't a value at =
the time.
> >=20
> > Hope that helps. Fly safe.
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > Rodney Brim,
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On
> > Behalf Of Rene Dugas
> > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:24 PM
> > To: reflector@tvbf.org
> > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence
> >=20
> >=20
> > I would be interested in dimensions and locations of fences.
> > Thanks,
> > Rene'
> > XL RG
> > rdugas@bayou.com
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Rodney Brim
> > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:12 PM
> > To: reflector@tvbf.org
> > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence
> >=20
> > Hi Chuck,
> >=20
> > 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final version of =
the
> > fences. Looks like that is attributable to driving the air more
> > directly
> > over the wing at slower speeds and not having it slide down the =
wing,
> > which
> > if you do some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing.
> > 2. It doesn't effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard.
> > 3. It feels like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure =
it,
> > but
> > you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, especially as you =
move
> > the
> > fences out along the wing, which I would not suggest. To me it =
makes
> > the
> > plane feel more stable.
> > 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon height of the fences =
and
> > location. At the location and height I have them, I have no =
reduction
> > in
> > cruise speed.
> >=20
> > 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but then what do I
> > know. I
> > think everyone should move to forward hinging doors;)
> >=20
> > Rodney Brim,
> > PS I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They probably
> > helped
> > save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going inverted stall at 200 =
feet
> > coming off a runway a couple of years ago... sometimes you can use =
all
> > the
> > stability and directional control you can get your hands on.
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On
> > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
> > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM
> > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'
> > Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence
> >=20
> >=20
> >>From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show
> > than an
> > inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance,
> > increasing
> > climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting =
cruise
> > performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a =
concensus or
> > is
> > the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a =
fence?
> >=20
> > Chuck Jensen
> > XL RG
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >=20
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >=20
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >=20
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >=20
> >=20
> > =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >=20
> >=20
> > =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit =
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>=20
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
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<DIV>Hi Scott,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You're flying & obviously a motivated soul....when you going to =
put=20
this information to the test and report back to all us curious =
builders? ;^=20
<FONT size=3D1>)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Greg in Sydney.<BR>STD RG Elite</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV>From: "Scott Derrick" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>scott@tnstaafl.net</FONT></A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: <<A href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>reflector@tvbf.org</FONT></A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:07 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Trailing Edge Aileron Fence and door open =
emergency=20
procedures</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>> Rodney,<BR>> <BR>> Thanks a bunch for the info =
and=20
pics!<BR>> <BR>> Scott<BR>> <BR>> Rodney Brim wrote:<BR>> =
>=20
Hi,<BR>> > Sorry I'm a month late in responding. Am fighting =
cancer=20
and low energy and<BR>> > don't get to the plane much to measure =
or take=20
pictures. But I recently did<BR>> > and here they are. =
I also=20
looked up my original research. The take-off<BR>> > roll was =
reduced=20
by over 20% not 15%. Actually at the time I measured it,<BR>> =
> it=20
was roughly 22%.<BR>> > <BR>> > Before I do the numbers and =
picture=20
story I want to suggest you all add a<BR>> > comment to your =
emergency=20
procedures.<BR>> > <BR>> > 1. If the door pops open fully, =
DO NOT=20
TURN AWAY FROM THE OPEN DOOR.<BR>> > <BR>> > If you, like I, =
ever=20
have that experience. You will start a rapid roll away<BR>> =
> from=20
the door to an inverted position. For me the door opened slightly =
as=20
I<BR>> > departed... with the gear coming up it pressurized the =
cabin and=20
pops the<BR>> > door wide open, and then if you turn away from the =
door=20
(to head back to the<BR>> > airport) it wants to roll and spin =
into the=20
ground, in my case at about 200<BR>> > feet. Opposite rudder =
and=20
aileron will hold you at a 60 degree bank angle,<BR>> > but won't =
get you=20
out of the fix as you're going to stall in that<BR>> >=20
configuration. There is a way out, but that's another =
conversation. =20
OK<BR>> > back to trailing edge fence.<BR>> > <BR>> > =
I've=20
attached a couple of pictures. They are located on the inboard =
side=20
of<BR>> > the ailerons. They point directly into the =
wind. If=20
you are testing, you<BR>> > can cut them out of plexiglass =
clipboards and=20
hot glue them in place. I did<BR>> > for all of my =
testing. I=20
also wrote this up in an article in Velocity Views<BR>> > a couple =
of=20
years ago.<BR>> > <BR>> > Specs:<BR>> > 1. =
Position. =20
They are located on the inside of the aileron, but face<BR>> > =
directly=20
into the wind, not the angle of the aileron.<BR>> > 2. They extend =
back=20
from the trailing edge 1.5 inches, and 5 inches above<BR>> > the =
trailing=20
edge and 2.5 inches below.<BR>> > 3. From that position the top =
and bottom=20
dive into the wing. The length of<BR>> > the top (from wing =
to end=20
of trailing edge) is 12 inches. The bottom is 9<BR>> > =
inches, but=20
note that's because the trailing edge of the stall fence is not<BR>> =
>=20
perpendicular to the ground. Instead of dropping at a 90 degree =
angle=20
at<BR>> > the top (which may be a preferable design), I slopped =
mine=20
forward at a 70<BR>> > degree angle.<BR>> > <BR>> > =
|---- 12=20
"------------------ 70<BR>>=20
> &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p; =20
-<BR>>=20
> &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p; =20
-<BR>>=20
> &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;=20
-<BR>> > |--- 9" =
----------|<BR>>=20
> <BR>> > <BR>> > That's roughly the shape in a text =
format,=20
except the bottom slopes up to<BR>> > meet the underside of the =
wing and=20
the top slopes down to meet the top. But<BR>> > both of =
those may be=20
better served by having a longer run into the wing.<BR>> > Klaus =
was the=20
one who helped me with this and it wasn't a value at the time.<BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > Hope that helps. Fly safe.<BR>> > <BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > <BR>> > Rodney Brim,<BR>> > <BR>> > =
<BR>>=20
> -----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>reflector-admin@tvbf.org</FONT></A>=20
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On<BR>> > Behalf Of Rene =
Dugas<BR>>=20
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:24 PM<BR>> > To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>reflector@tvbf.org</FONT></A><BR>> > Subject: RE:=20
REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > I would =
be=20
interested in dimensions and locations of fences.<BR>> >=20
Thanks,<BR>> > Rene'<BR>> > XL RG<BR>> > <A=20
href=3D"mailto:rdugas@bayou.com"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>rdugas@bayou.com</FONT></A><BR>> > <BR>> >=20
-----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>reflector-admin@tvbf.org</FONT></A>=20
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On<BR>> > Behalf Of Rodney =
Brim<BR>>=20
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:12 PM<BR>> > To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>reflector@tvbf.org</FONT></A><BR>> > Subject: RE:=20
REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence<BR>> > <BR>> > Hi Chuck,<BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final =
version=20
of the<BR>> > fences. Looks like that is attributable to =
driving the=20
air more<BR>> > directly<BR>> > over the wing at slower =
speeds and=20
not having it slide down the wing,<BR>> > which<BR>> > if =
you do=20
some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing.<BR>> > 2. It =
doesn't=20
effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard.<BR>> > 3. It =
feels=20
like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure it,<BR>> =
>=20
but<BR>> > you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, =
especially as=20
you move<BR>> > the<BR>> > fences out along the wing, which =
I would=20
not suggest. To me it makes<BR>> > the<BR>> > plane =
feel more=20
stable.<BR>> > 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon =
height of=20
the fences and<BR>> > location. At the location and height I =
have=20
them, I have no reduction<BR>> > in<BR>> > cruise =
speed.<BR>>=20
> <BR>> > 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but =
then=20
what do I<BR>> > know. I<BR>> > think everyone should =
move to=20
forward hinging doors;)<BR>> > <BR>> > Rodney Brim,<BR>> =
> PS=20
I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They =
probably<BR>>=20
> helped<BR>> > save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going =
inverted=20
stall at 200 feet<BR>> > coming off a runway a couple of years =
ago...=20
sometimes you can use all<BR>> > the<BR>> > stability and=20
directional control you can get your hands on.<BR>> > <BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>reflector-admin@tvbf.org</FONT></A>=20
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On<BR>> > Behalf Of Chuck =
Jensen<BR>>=20
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM<BR>> > To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:'reflector@tvbf.org'"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>'reflector@tvbf.org'</FONT></A><BR>> > Subject:=20
REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >>From =
the=20
Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show<BR>> > =
than=20
an<BR>> > inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff=20
distance,<BR>> > increasing<BR>> > climb rate and perhaps =
reducing=20
stall speed while not affecting cruise<BR>> > performance and =
turning=20
characteristics. Has this become a concensus or<BR>> > =
is<BR>>=20
> the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for =
such a=20
fence?<BR>> > <BR>> > Chuck Jensen<BR>> > XL =
RG<BR>> >=20
<BR>> > _______________________________________________<BR>> =
> To=20
change your email address, visit<BR>> > <A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></A>=
<BR>>=20
> <BR>> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose<BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > <BR>> >=20
_______________________________________________<BR>> > To change =
your=20
email address, visit<BR>> > <A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></A>=
<BR>>=20
> <BR>> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose<BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >=20
_______________________________________________<BR>> > To change =
your=20
email address, visit<BR>> > <A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></A>=
<BR>>=20
> <BR>> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose<BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >=20
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BR>>=20
> <BR>> > <BR>> >=20
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BR>>=20
> <BR>> > <BR>> >=20
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BR>>=20
> <BR>> <BR>> =
_______________________________________________<BR>>=20
To change your email address, visit <A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></A>=
<BR>>=20
<BR>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose</BODY></HTML>
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