REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers onaircraftsearches: Customs Pilot Perspective

Tue Jun 25 19:10:32 CDT 2013

As much as this personally interests, me, I think we need to keep this 
on topic related to flying.
I believe this discussion related to flying is good, but please don't 
let this degenerate into a political flame fest.

On 06/25/2013 05:27 PM, Laurence Coen wrote:
> WHY?  If they use there resources to do DEA's job instead of 
> protecting our borders, that was exactly my point.
> Larry
>
> *From:* Mark Magee <mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 25, 2013 12:26 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
> <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers 
> onaircraftsearches: Customs Pilot Perspective
>
> CBP reports to and does what DHS instructs them to do.
>
>
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Security
>
> Mark B. Magee
> Sent from IPhone 4S
>
>> I believe that California is still part of the Union so drug flow 
>> from there is a DEA problem and not CBP.  If CBP stuck to doing their 
>> job everybody would be a lot happier.
>> Larry Coen
>>
>> *From:* Mark Magee <mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 25, 2013 9:15 AM
>> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
>> <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on 
>> aircraftsearches: Customs Pilot Perspective
>>
>> I thought I was 'Right' of Attila the Hun.... :)
>> Remember, these guys encounter -actual- bad guys routinely, daily. 
>> After encountering Bad Boys so often it can put them on edge. He 
>> mentioned the drugs flying from West to East, they did legalized pot 
>> in California, but not many other states. These guys are put in a 
>> fairly funky position.
>> I know this guy well enough: he's a Patriot, active duty Navy pilot 
>> for 10 years, now flying in the reserves.
>> Customs has always been dirty business. Study the history, Customs 
>> service started as intercepting tobacco smugglers and began in 
>> England circa 1800. The Coast Guard evolved out of Customs in UK and 
>> became the model world-wide. Breaking up smugglers can get dicey, no?
>> Are smugglers nice people?? :(
>> I think Richard's post about having a liaison conduit with the local 
>> GA community to Customs and Local Law Enforcement is important. This 
>> situation is only going to get worse as our society degrades more, 
>> more states legalizing drugs that are illegal in other states etc. 
>> Lot's of money in flying a C210 load of pot from CA to Texas.
>> I don't like the hassles either, we need to all be ready however. 
>> This is what our country has voted itself into. I fear it can only 
>> get considerably worse.
>> I think the tips my friend shared are valuable: DON'T PROVIDE 
>> PROBABLE CAUSE!
>> We don't flip off a highway patrolman when he pulls us over do we?
>> At least not since me youth.... :)
>> Mark Magee
>> N34XL
>> Brady TX
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jun 25, 2013, at 6:43 AM, Scott Baker <scottb33333 at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:scottb33333 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/24/2013 11:07 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
>>>> Mark,
>>>> All is well.  I'm in the process of making al my FAA paperwork 
>>>> right for the airlines. I just finished my 737 type rating and 
>>>> finally picked up my ATP.
>>>> As far as the ramp check stuff, I really don't have too much 
>>>> insight.  The topic probably would be better served if we could sit 
>>>> down and chat.  The biggest concern is ensuring that 4th amendment 
>>>> rights are not infringed upon, and balancing that with law 
>>>> enforcement.  There is a constant flow of drugs moving from the 
>>>> west coast and we are having a fair amount of luck intercepting it. 
>>>>  The problem arises when we talk with a law abiding general aviator 
>>>> who does NOT care for the government (and Texas is loaded with the 
>>>> Anti-govt type), and they do not care to try to understand the 
>>>> battle we are in. It is a VERY thin line, and a line that sometimes 
>>>> is wrongfully crossed.  Bottom line, if you don't want someone to 
>>>> look at your plane, you have the right to say no.  Law Enforcement 
>>>> Officials have the job of developing both reasonable suspicion and 
>>>> probable cause.  Once that is developed, there are a whole 
>>>> different set of rules that apply. _With that being said, 
>>>> understand that flying is a privilege, and if you are witnessed 
>>>> exercising that privilege, LEO's (any city, state, federal) have 
>>>> the right/obligation to verify that you are properly certified_ to 
>>>> operate the aircraft, and that the aircraft is properly registered 
>>>> with the FAA (standard ramp check stuff).  The guys in the office 
>>>> constantly go round and round since many of us exercise our general 
>>>> aviation privileges as well (perfect time to interject the fact 
>>>> that I bought a DELETED last year).  If you are approached on the 
>>>> ramp, be prepared to show your FAA docs and medical certificate. 
>>>>  If they ask to look at your airplane and you just don't feel like 
>>>> playing nice, say no.  Your freedom of movement should not be 
>>>> hindered if reasonable suspicion has yet to be determined. 
>>>>  Disclaimer..... It's a thin line that the LEO walks.  We all have 
>>>> our individual threshold for reasonable suspicion (with very little 
>>>> guidance....by design).  Probable cause, on the other hand, is 
>>>> fairly well established by various case laws (typically when judges 
>>>> start issuing warrants).  If RS/PC is established, the LEO can then 
>>>> continue with their "investigative detention" (restrict movement 
>>>> etc.) to satisfy their concerns.  RS is NOT enough to force their 
>>>> way into your personal property, but PC is (a dog that alerts 
>>>> satisfies PC by case law).  This rabbit hole continues on and on. 
>>>>  It is fantastic hangar talk that I would be happy to participate 
>>>> in (in uniform or not).  I hope this helps. Keep in touch and let 
>>>> me know if you need anymore info (or different explanation).
>>>>
>>>> NAME DELETED
>>>
>>> "... LEO's have the right/obligation to verify that you are properly 
>>> certified"
>>>
>>> Say again?!  What kind of logic is that?  Who among us does not take 
>>> exception to this kind of thinking, i.e. 'guilty until proven innocent'?
>>> The actions and tactics use by law enforcement - as expressed in 
>>> recent headlines - is just wrong and is also a major (in a big way) 
>>> waste of money and law enforcement resources.
>>> I have had the 'pleasure' of interacting with local police, 
>>> sheriff's department, fire department, FAA FSDO, and NTSB types at 
>>> Sebastian (FL) airport.
>>> Eight out of Ten were judged in my opinion as being arrogant, power 
>>> wielding, unintelligent regarding the topic at hand, and more 
>>> concerned about their appearing to be 'in control' of things than in 
>>> making good common sense observations and decisions.  As an 
>>> exception to the rule, I give credit to the FBI as being 
>>> professional, courteous, and only organization in the bunch that 
>>> really knows what the _ell they were doing.
>>>
>>> When similar and incredibly stupid actions are added to the mix by 
>>> local law enforcement officers - it is easy to adopt a disdainful 
>>> guilt-by-association attitude towards every 'public servant' who 
>>> wears a uniform - especially those who wear a badge and gun.
>>> From where I stand, these agencies have earned their reputation, and 
>>> I believe are too arrogant to understand that the people they 
>>> 'serve' do not like it.
>>> Federal (TSA, CBP, more) and local law enforcement have a long way 
>>> to go to regain the trust they have lost to law abiding American 
>>> citizens.  The question is, "Do they care?"
>>>
>>> Stepping off soap box now.
>>> Scott B
>>>
>>>
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