REFLECTOR: Auto fuel

Sun Mar 18 18:44:12 CDT 2012

Do I have the summary of this situation correct . . . ?

-          100LL:  No problem for our tanks (epoxy, Jeffco or foam are all
OK).

-          Mogas (ethanol free):  An additive (as yet unidentified) is
sneaking (locations, amount and source undetermined) into the product that
attacks the foam but not the epoxy or Jeffco.

Does that sound about right????

Next question . . . Is the suspect Mogas only coming from "the station on
the corner" or is it also seen from pumps at the airport? Or is this also
still to-be-determined? 

Thanks,

Tom

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of nmflyer1 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:49 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Auto fuel

Dennis, 

There are so many factors to take into consideration, it is hard to tell. 

Could the Gas I have been using be friendlier than others... possibly. 

It is also possible that there was a pinhole or two in other folks tank that
allowed the gas to get underneath the Jeffco, and cause a problem from a
different avenue. 

It could also be that filling of the tanks could have found a small spot
that allowed the gas to get behind the Jeffco. Since I have not yet had more
than 5 gallons in each tank, I may not have stumbled upon that kind of
problem. 

Your proposal for X-country trips sounds reasonable, but is it safe enough?
I honestly don't know the answer. 

Here is some more mud for the water:  

I re-sealed the fiberglass tip tanks in the 235 several years ago. I had to
repair some areas and went ahead and used Jeffco to seal them once I was
done. Now, the Jeffco was over a year or so old at that point. 

The tip tanks in the 235 have a soft spot or 2 in them (in the top). I'm not
sure why yet as I haven't had time to open them back up. 

The fuel I used in them is the same stuff that I put in the Velocity tanks.
No soft spots there. 

When I need the tip tanks full, I do it right before I leave, and I burn
them first. So far, the tanks have not gotten any worse. 

I will open them back up once the Velocity is flying and see if I can figure
out what happened (and let you all know). It is a LOT easier than working on
a Velocity tank!

Bottom line:  If we can not figure out the culprit as to what is causing the
problem (specific chemical or procedure), then I don't think it is worth the
risk to fill the Velocity tanks with MoGas. 

I would guess that if you blend your own fuel (50/50 Mogas to 100LL) that it
would probably dilute the problem... but would it be enough? 

I know this doesn't help much.. but you did ask what I thought :) 

Kurt 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Martin <dennis.doc at gmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 10:46 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Auto fuel

Kurt, 

Stories suggest that mogas takes significant time to do its damage, and your
experience supports that theory. However, maybe the additive mix in New
Mexico is a lucky brew we won't find in other regions. I've never put mogas
in my tanks, but I was thinking about using mogas for extended X country
trips that require say two or three tanks of fuel. If most of the mogas is
consumed on the trip, and then you top off with 100LL upon returning home,
your tank might end up with 20% mogas for a few days. Is it worth the risk
to save $50 or $100? Perhaps the risk would be minimal or non-existent.
Opinions?

Dennis

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:55 AM, <nmflyer1 at aol.com> wrote:

Thanks!  

That is definitely some good information to know. I inspected my tanks this
week. I have had Clean Mogas in there for about a year (being cycled through
as I run things). So far, no problems. I used a scope to look around as well
as checked for leaks and soft spots in the tanks/sump. 

Not knowing what blend of fuel you may get is the scary part. As was
mentioned, there are many different blends based on company requests,
location, time of year, etc. I suppose the only safe way to use Mogas in the
V would be to find the exact name of the additive that is causing the
problem. 

I am part owner in the 100LL fuel company at my Airpark. When we take
delivery of our fuel load, we get a spec sheet that gives all the details of
that fuel load. I would assume that that is a rule. 

One thing for sure, It is not worth the problems in the V to save a few
bucks. 

Thanks again, 

Kurt 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Dawson <medawson250 at yahoo.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Fri, Mar 16, 2012 10:37 am
Subject: REFLECTOR: Auto fuel

To all who use Auto fuel,

Here is Bill Mulrooney's response to my brother's inquiry of his auto fuel /
mogas experience.

For those who do not know, Bill and his partner built a Velocity with a 427
V8...N427VA....it boogies!

Hi Bill,
"Sorry to hear your having issues also.  I live in West Bloomfield Michigan.
I'd be happy to talk to you about your problems and what I've learned from
my problems.  Alcohol isn't the problem, it's the fuel injector cleaners
that they started adding 9 months ago.  It is such a small molecule it
literally slips threw the Jeffco coating in the tanks.  Our tanks look
perfect inside but the fittings in the sump tank and the foam in the stakes
just took a shit on us!  I'm still pretty sick about it!  I'm going to make
the sump tank out of aluminum and were removing the outer glass skins and
foam and adding another coat of Jeffco to the outside of the inner skin
followed by 8 to 10 layers of bid.  Then foam and then the outer layer of
glass again.  The wheel wells are about 1/8 " of glass and they look perfect
still.  Our plane has had auto fuel in it since 2004 with no problem till
August 2012.  The vapor build up between the inner and outer glass and then
popped the glass loose around the fuel fillers on both sides.  That was just
after Oshkosh 2011.  Then the foam started to sink in on the glass.  Then we
stopped flying it. "

Bill Mulrooney

I stopped by my non branded Commercial Fuel Network outlet yesterday and
this is what I learned. While there is no Ethanol in their fuel they service
several stations. IE Chevron, 76, Mobil, Shell etc. Fuel received from the
refinery contains the additives for that company's fuel. Consequently the
fuel they sell to me , as non branded with no Ethanol, contains different
additives or blends of additives from each company. They guarantee no
Ethanol but any combination of additives after that are anyone's guess. So
Kurt et al take heed. I'll be using 100LL for now!

Mike Dawson

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-- 
All the best,
Dennis

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