REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Douglas Holub
douglas.holub at gmail.com
Tue Jan 31 16:44:51 CST 2012
The West epoxy is also less toxic. I heard stories about guys developing an allergic reaction to the EZ-Poxy after a few years and then having to abandon their project, so I was always worried about leaving it on my skin too long. Also, the temperature at which the cured layups start getting soft in the heat (the transition temperature) is about 10 degrees higher with EZ-Poxy, if I remember right. I think West is around 150 F and EZ is about 160 F with no post-cure.
----- Original Message -----
From: nmflyer1 at aol.com
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
I know that Velocity West built a 173 using all west systems stuff. I have never heard of any difficulties with it.
All my structural stuff was built with the factory epoxy. After all that was done, the pump was shot and the resin solidified. I have been using West ever since.
Also, the comment on the Microlite Filler is true too. There is a tempurature warning on it though, so be careful with that.
Kurt
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave T Nelson <dtnelson at us.ibm.com>
To: reflector <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 2:46 pm
Subject: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
That's good to hear, Andy. I wonder what kind of testing was performed?
Dave
Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering
reflector-request---01/31/2012 03:18:34 PM---Send Reflector mailing list submissions to reflector at tvbf.org
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1. Re: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ? (Andrew Millin)
----- Message from Andrew Millin <amillin at sbcglobal.net> on Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:11:01 -0800 (PST) -----
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Hey Dave,
I do appreciate the concern and I do agree with you. I would never have just decided on my own to use the West system. I called the Velocity factory before I used it on the plane. I was told that it was acceptable. Not out to start a big discussion on what is and what isn't acceptable. I just wanted to let you know that I checked before using.
Andy
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From: Dave T Nelson <dtnelson at us.ibm.com>
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Sent: Tue, January 31, 2012 3:49:17 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Andy... gotta say... and with all possible respect...
Using West on anything structural is an absolute no-no at least among the EZ crowd. Without complete testing, it should be a no-no in the Velocity crowd too.
SafeTpoxy was tested completely and thoroughly by Burt. EZpoxy was a direct replacement. If you use West for structure, you are going out on an untested limb, and the only way you'll know how far you've gone is when something really bad happens. Please don't do that! There was at least one communal experience in this among the EZ crowd... two builders in Brazil that built their Cozys with locally available "equivalent" epoxy. One of them, Firmino Campos, suffered a structural failure in flight but was able to land the airplane without injury. You might not be so lucky.
This is like one of many, many decisions one has to make while building... all of which boil down to this question - how much of a test pilot do you want to be?
Dave
Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering
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1. Re: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ? (Bob Jackson (Jax Tech))
----- Message from "Bob Jackson \(Jax Tech\)" <bobj at jaxtechllc.com> on Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:09:05 -0500 -----
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Good observations and collection of tips, Andy!
Bob
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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Andy Millin
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:45 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Yes, you could use West System to build the whole plane. The reason we don’t is that it costs more and even the slow hardener is must faster than the EZ-84 we use. When doing the larger layups the longer work time is required.
If you get the fast hardener, you’ll want to have everything in place within 45 minutes of initial mix. For a larger layup that will require good prep. If it is 80 degrees or more, you might have 30 minutes. You’ll want to avoid larger batches as it is kicking harder and can exotherm on you. I have had batches of micro exotherm with the West. I consider this to be the nature of the beast, not really a downside.
I used it for most of the completion tasks and by then I was greatful for the speed. With West I was able to complete a series of 3 layups in the same day. That would have been 3 days minimum with EZ-84.
BTW, if you are doing fill work, you might want to look into West System 410, Microlight Faring Filler. Use it like micro AND spot putty. It spreads much better. It sands better. It feathers out beautifully. It costs a more than micro, but … time vs. money. A 5 oz container is approximately a gallon by volume. Make sure you work it well on a booger board before you apply it; want the bubbles out (same with micro).
Another tip. FWIW. I stopped using sand paper for layup prep as well. I was directed to 3M maroon Scotchbrite pads. Again, they cost more, but they will get to the bottom of the weave almost immediately. You’ll get a great scuff in a fraction of the time. Buy the whole box at a premium auto paint supply store.
Andy
==========================
Andy Millin
amillin at sbcglobal.net
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Sieders
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 5:04 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Well I guess the consensus told me he story that I was leaning towards. Andy’s idea about switching to West Systems product is something that I am going to research. I still have to turn the airplane over and lay down a layer on the top strake and the main spar. Could I use the West systems for that as well ? (before I reinvent the wheel ?)
Thanks all for the response. Sorry about the two emails, my computer crashed while sending my first email and when reflector didn’t send it back I concluded that it was not received and resend it, finding out afterwards Reflector had issues of its own.
gr. Patrick
From: Alex Balic
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:05 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
The Michaels unit is great when you need to mix a lot of epoxy at a time, or when you are working on a lot of layups that you are always needing the resin for- most of this work is early on in the building process. I used the Michaels pump with good success when building the flying surfaces and fuselage, but then it sat for a while, and got gummed up- I took it apart, and cleaned it up, then used it a couple of times before it sat and got gummed up again, so I just tossed it and started using a scale to measure the resin for all of the occasional small jobs I had.
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of John Dibble
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:42 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
I second that. I've never used a pump. I use a scale that measures to 0.01 gram. I can mix as little as 5 grams with high precision for those really little jobs.
John
Jack Prock wrote:
Hi Patrick, I have the expensive Michaels pump and it works great when moving a lot of epoxy through it, like when I was buildingmy wings and canard. But, if you aren't using a lot of epoxy, the pump tends to get gummed up.After I finished the big pieces, over time the epoxy tended to get sludgy and hard to move through the pump.I spent more time cleaning it than using it. If you only have small parts, just buy a good electronic scale and use hand pumping to measure outthe ratio. This works fine and you won't waste time with all that cleaning. My epoxy pump is now cleanedand empty and sitting in storage, while I finish the rest of the plane. Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Sieders
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:07 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?
Hello All,
I would like some input into what epoxy pumps to buy. I know the difference, my question is more about if it’s worth it looking at the state of my project.
Some may remember that I took over Tom Tolton’s XL5 Fg. Since the airplane hull is pretty much done, I am looking at some smaller epoxy projects to finish it up.
So should I buy the more expensive Michaels ratio pump or could I suffice with the handpumps ?
Take a look at my project as it sits in my garage right now ( http://www.sieders.com/sieders/velocity/index.htm ) and I would love to hear your opinion.
Thanks,
Patrick Sieders
Nashville TN USA
XL5-FG
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