REFLECTOR: Bonding bid to carbon
Jones Nick
nick.jones at volvo.com
Mon Jun 6 08:49:11 CDT 2011
Matt,
I did the same thing with different results. I made a catch on the carbon fiber hatch out of fiberglass and it is still there today (10 years later). There may have been some type of release agent on the carbon. Did you clean the surface before or after sanding? I have found that if I don't clean the surface before sanding that the sanding process embeds the release agent (silicone, wax, etc...) into the material and its nearly impossible to get a good bond. I also am careful to use rags that have never been washed. Some laundry detergents have silicone to prevent stains. Also dryer sheets that smell good have silicone compounds that transfer to the fabric. Using rags from this process to clean the bond area almost ensures silicone contamination into the bond.
Just a thought.
Best regards,
Nick
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Matt Bucko
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 8:10 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: REFLECTOR: Bonding bid to carbon
My hatch has a layer of carbon on the inside surface. I want to bond 2 bid of fiberglass to it to make a flange on the front lip. I sanded the carbon (maybe not enough?) and applied 2 bid. After cure, I was able to pull off the bid with little difficulty. It looked like the epoxy came off of the carbon layer completely.
What did I do wrong?
Matt
On 6/4/2011 10:52 PM, Al Gietzen wrote:
Tom;
Looks good - except for specimen #4. Why would you want it thoroughly sanded if you were not going to coat it? You would coat it with epoxy/cabosil; or just plain epoxy, and leave a smooth surface.
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Falls
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:48 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
Thanks John/Jim
I sanded and pre-coated all the tank parts with an epoxy/cabosil mixture and then sanded again before install. I then consulted with Scott Swing on an idea I had and got the thumbs up to proceed. The idea was to apply the Rhino 9700 within 12-14 hours of installing the BID lay-ups on the tank bulk heads and baffles. The thought is to eliminate the arduous sanding task that I knew I couldn't do a quality job of in all those tight, hard to get at spaces. The ideal scenario would be to get the coating on after 6 hours of BID curing, but that would make for a very long day. It took my wife and I six hours to get all bulk heads and baffles installed (right strake only).
With that said, I will do a test with a number of 100 gram fiber glass samples in E10 mogas, all coated with the Rhino 9700, leaving a small portion of the fiberglass uncoated:
1. Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, cured 2-3 days then thoroughly sanded.
2. Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, thoroughly sanded and then BID applied and allowed to cure for 14 hours before coating (no peel ply or sanding).
3. Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, thoroughly sanded and then BID applied and allowed to cure for 4 days before coating (no peel ply or sanding).
4. As a control; Pre- coated with epoxy/cab and thoroughly sanded but WITHOUT any Rhino 9700 coating.
My right tank is a combination of samples 1 & 2. With experience building the right tank and better planning, the left tank will hopefully be coated in something less than 14 hours. Sample 3 will be a worse-case scenario for my install process, and sample 4 should help those that have no coating at all. It will be a couple of days before I can get started making the samples and testing will last many weeks (months?) with measurements taken probably weekly.
Tom
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Agnew
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:33 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
Tom,
Many years ago I coated my tanks with Jefco and to this day it looks like new. However, I carefully sanded all of the tank including the baffles surfaces and wiped them down with denatured alcohol and let them dry. The Jefco was mixed in 16 oz cups and its working life was about 15 minutes at the high Florida temperatures. I didn't use a brush I dumped the cup in the tank and used a plastic spreader to spread it around so the layer was thick. I did test strips for a month in straight alcohol with no observed problems. It worked very well.
Jim
James F. Agnew
Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com<mailto:Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com>
Tampa, FL
Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
From: John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com><mailto:aminetech at bluefrog.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol
Tom,
You should weigh the fiberglass before and after to check for weight gain/loss. The scale you use should read down to 1% of the sample weight. Also, the issue may not be just the effect on the coating, but on it's adherence to the fiberglass. To evaluate this I suggest you leave part of the fiberglass uncoated to see if the mogas gets in between the coating and the fiberglass.
John
Tom Falls wrote:
Thanks John, that is reassuring. Reading that some on this list are having trouble with the Jeffco after 5-6 years is a concern, especially after I just finished (yesterday!!) completely coating the right strake with the Rhino 9700. I think I?ll take a piece of cured fiberglass and coat it with the Rhino 9700 and then submerse it in 10% ethanol mogas and leave it there for weeks/months just to be sure. I?ll report back what I find.
Tom
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of John Dibble
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:14 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
Weight gain (or loss) is a measure of the effect of the ethanol. Zero gain means no effect and that is ideal. Weight gain typically results in a softening of the material. Weight loss means the ethanol is removing something, typically plasticizers, making the material more brittle. The chart also lists gasohol, which represents a range of ethanol/gasoline blends, 10% being most common. Since no weight gain is indicated, it appears that 10% ethanol should not be a problem.
John
Tom Falls wrote:
I am currently in the process of coating my tanks with Rhino 9700 (formerly Jeffco ). Although I have no intention of using fuels with ethanol, I do plan on using 98 octane and 100LL. Attached is the data sheet for Rhino 9700. Under chemical resistance, pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) is listed with a 6.9% weight gain after 3 weeks. I don?t know if this means a failure or not . . . . but again it?s 100% Ethanol. Any chemical types out there that can tell us what ?% weight gain? really means?
Tom
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Velocity
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 2:02 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
I had a very similar experience with pump gas. Melted my optical sump sensor
and pealed the jefco in the sump. I could not tell you if it was the
Ethanol because they put so much crap in our gas
here in Chicago. But some thing in the gas station pump gas
is not good for our tanks.
The epoxy was not effected by the gas just the jefco pealed. Makes me question the Jeffco
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Balic<mailto:velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
I had a similar problem as Chris- although I did not put any mogas in my mains, I had my sump filled with 89 pump gas for engine testing, and after about 6 months, I noticed gas weeping from the bottom- so I pulled it and the Jeffco had become soft and pasty- not sure what happened there, I re-built the sump using a new batch of Jeffco, but have been running on 100ll since just to make sure there is no problem?.. I will try the auto fuel again at some point?
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Laurence Coen
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 11:16 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol
Peter,
You are not the first to warn people about EZ poxy and ethanol and I doubt that you will be the last. I refer you to Al Gietzens' email where he has 6 years experiences with ethanol containing fuel in his EZ poxy tanks without a problem. I personally tested a strip sealed in a container with denatured alcohol with no apparent effect after 6 months. Despite all the warnings, I have never seen or herd of any documented evidence that would indicate that EZ poxy is adversely affected by ethanol containing fuel. If you have a reference, please share it with the group.
Larry Coen
N136LC
From: Peter Braswell<mailto:peter.braswell at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:26 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel Tank Questions
Mark,
That almost certainly sounds like the EZ poxy that ships with the kit and NOT Jeffco (the really good stuff).
My understanding is that the EZ poxy holds up just fine with aviation fuel but I'd be VERY hesitant to use it in conjunction with fuel containing ethanol.
I may have missed, but are you flying an auto conversion?
Peter
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On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Markinchampions ?markinchampions at gmail.com<mailto:markinchampions at gmail.com>? wrote:
It appears as a dark brownish red color.
Sent from my iPod.
On Jun 3, 2011, at 10:21 AM, ?Al Gietzen? ?ALVentures at cox.net<mailto:ALVentures at cox.net>? wrote:
I don't know what was used. I didn't build it and I'm not that familiar with fiberglass.
EZ-poxy is the epoxy system that Velocity sent with the kits; and is most likely what was used. Shine a light in the tank ? should be a yellow/brown/gold color if EZ-poxy, gray if Jeffco.
Al
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