REFLECTOR: Static RPM
Jerry Teitsma
jerryteits at comcast.net
Wed Aug 19 10:28:59 CDT 2009
I fly out of Granby - Field elevation 8200 and change. I have a Franklin
engine with an IVO Prop (FG). I can only get about 2400 RPM on static run
up. It takes about 2200 ft for TO and about 2500 ft. on landing. density
altitude is typically 9-10,000 ft. unless it is a nice cold morning. I
always lean as others have indicated. At 10,000 ft, I lean again. Hope
this helps. JT
Jerry Teitsma
PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446
970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax)
jerryteits at comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
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To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:22 AM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Static RPM Question (Al Gietzen)
> 2. Re: Static RPM Question ( Brett Ferrell )
> 3. Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM Question
> (Scott Derrick)
> 4. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question (Terry Miles)
> 5. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question (Chuck Jensen)
> 6. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question (Scott Derrick)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:14:31 -0800
> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <DBD7CB9524E643669503E1D6B2AC7B7A at BigAl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> Thanks. I was aware of the effect on HP. I was wondering if the
> decreased
> air density made spinning the prop easier and if it would compensate.
>
>
>
> John
>
> Yes; the prop also spins easier; but the power decrease is directly
> proportional to the density; whereas the prop drag goes as the cube root;
> or
> some such; so the power loss wins.
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:34:32 -0500
> From: " Brett Ferrell " <reflector at velocityxl.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
> To: "reflector" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <20090818213432.15211.qmail at s214.sureserver.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> As a reminder, the Koch (and crosswind charts) are available on the wiki
>
> http://wiki.velocityxl.com/index.php?title=Articles#Other
>
> Brett
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:05:23 -0600
> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <4A8B25A3.5050905 at tnstaafl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
> probably would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>
> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>
> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
> above 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
> you can't hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because
> the engine is making way less than 75% power.
>
> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
> richen to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once
> your 500-1000 above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get
> some cooling if you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your
> cooling that way!
>
> Scott
>
> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>
>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:34:41 -0500
> From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
> RPM Question
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY141-DS7AF763F38548B7FADEB80F2FE0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear all,
> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for me. I
> am
> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is nice
> a
> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
> back to +100 or so cooler.
>
> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
> Temps
> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000. If I
> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then the
> KLMO
> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for big
> wind
> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to get in
> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the runway
> up
> again.
>
> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule of
> thumb
> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld temp is
> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the engine
> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
> personal
> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is 3000,
> what
> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like 6500
> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>
> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
> really
> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>
> Thanks
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question
>
> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that probably
> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>
> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>
> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is above
> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high you
> can't
> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the engine is
> making way less than 75% power.
>
> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
> richen
> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
> 500-1000
> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some cooling if
> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>
> Scott
>
> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>
>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:23:15 -0400
> From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen at dts9000.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
> RPM Question
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B30104A295 at lucky.dts.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Terry,
>
> Three weeks ago, I flew into CO into JeffCo, aka, Jefferson County, aka
> Rocky Mountain Regional, aka Metropolitan, aka BJC. After a 'wild ride'
> through the mid afternoon wind and turbulence dropping down off the
> mountains and nearby thunderstorms and virga, I was relieved to pull off
> the taxiway onto the ramp to head to the FBO. As I reduced rpm, the
> engine started running real rough so I kicked on the booster pump (SOP on
> the flat land to add pressure to the fuel to overcome the tendency to
> vaporize the fuel because of heat in the overhead injection lines) on the
> IO-540, which promptly killed the engine. I then remembered where I was
> at and the high 90F temps. I restarted the hot engine (thanks to Odyssey
> and B&C) by pulling the mixture off until the engine caught and then ran
> with the mixture partially leaned for satisfactory ops.
>
> I was number three for Jeffco after a wild ride through the turbulence
> east of DEN. The turbulence seem to abate a little as I sat up for a
> right base, though another TS show was crossing the far end of the field.
> Both the Cessna and Cirrus ahead of me report smooth air for landing. Did
> I mention, things can change real quick?
>
> After making an adequate landing (considering everything) and advising the
> tower that they could cancel the 'smooth air' advisory, I taxied to the
> ramp where a lineman signaled me into place (after the restart, right in
> front of the tower, mentioned above). I cut the engine and reach around
> to gather up some stuff---when I looked up, I was starting to move across
> the ramp. The wind was blowing like Hades out of the NW. We got things
> tied down and the lineman gave me a ride to the FBO. He said this was
> common for mid afternoon as the TS develop, even though it was just spotty
> cells, and the wind comes down off the mountain, then toward late
> afternoon/evening, it dies back down again. A King Air landed right after
> me and the pilot came into the office and remarked, 'well, that was
> certainly fun'.
>
> Since I wanted to fly from DEN to Knoxville, TN in a single leg, I topped
> off both tanks, but I was alone. From the postings on here by Kurt, Scott
> and other 'high flyers', I remembered to calibrate my mixture during run
> up to account for the density altitude, which was something in the double
> digits. It's kinda spooky to take off and look down a couple minutes
> later and realize a person is already above 7000'. The high density is
> when I fully appreciate the 300HP version of the 540. It really wasn't
> doggy, but it certainly didn't climb like an F-15 on departure either. On
> landing, I really didn't notice any difference because I was light and
> headed into a 'brisk' headwind, so landing distance was meaningless.
>
> Terry, I would think (but don't know) that the 4800 foot of runway should
> be ample, especially if the temp isn't into the 90s, though just to be
> sure, it might be okay to have the passengers leave their steamer trunks
> behind and not top both sides off. Happy flying and make sure you have
> all of the current DEN plates, particularly the departure procedures. If
> you depart VFR, there's obvious some interesting vectoring if you are
> crossing the DEN airport area.
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
> Diversified Technologies
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Jensen
>
> Diversified Technologies
> 2680 Westcott Blvd
> Knoxville, TN 37931
> Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
> Cell: 865-406-9001
> Fax: 865-539-9001
> cjensen at dts9000.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Terry Miles
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:35 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports;was Re: Static RPM
> Question
>
>
> Dear all,
> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for me. I
> am
> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is nice
> a
> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
> back to +100 or so cooler.
>
> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
> Temps
> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000. If I
> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then the
> KLMO
> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for big
> wind
> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to get in
> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the runway
> up
> again.
>
> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule of
> thumb
> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld temp is
> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the engine
> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
> personal
> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is 3000,
> what
> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like 6500
> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>
> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
> really
> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>
> Thanks
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question
>
> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that probably
> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>
> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>
> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is above
> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high you
> can't
> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the engine is
> making way less than 75% power.
>
> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
> richen
> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
> 500-1000
> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some cooling if
> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>
> Scott
>
> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>
>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:22:49 -0600
> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
> RPM Question
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <4A8C0AB9.2030404 at tnstaafl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Terry,
>
> Its really good your are thinking ahead on this.
>
> My experience with the V at hot & high airports is that I can easily get
> in to a field that is too short to get out of. Unless its really short
> I'm not to worried about landing length. That assumes you are
> comfortable with an over the fence speed of 85-80 knots(or less). If
> faster, all bets are off. Landing the V is all about energy management,
> and speed is energy, too much and you will float forever..
>
> You have a perfect place to practice at APA, higher elevation, and
> longer runway. If you passengers are OK about it, do a couple takeoffs
> and landings there and see how much you use landing and departing?
> Since its 1,000 higher you should use a bit less at LMO, and it should
> give you the confidence you need.
>
> One of the items we are all aware of in the mountain west is fuel load.
> Its an easy way to adjust your take off weight. As a rule don't carry
> any extra. I'm not talking about no minimum, always have 45-60 minutes
> of extra fuel, but don't just fill up. An extra 20-30 gallons of fuel
> can make a huge difference in take off distance.
>
> Also since you going to be at the show through the hot part of the day,
> plan on a late departure. The temps will be comin down after 3-4, and
> the generally the winds do to. Plan on a 5pm departure, and let those
> temps come down in your favor. You'll have daylight until 7-8 so there
> is no hurry.
>
> The winds out here can be gusty, but they also are variable. It can be
> calm, then blowing 20-30 knots for 10-20 minutes, then calm again. Wait
> for a calm to depart in unless it is a fairly steady breeze down the
> runway.
>
> Plan on a sluggish climb, plan your path from the airport to avoid the
> need for an aggressive climb. If unfamiliar with the airport, and its
> mountainous plan a climb in the pattern so you can get the lay of the
> land while safely gaining altitude.
>
> Its not that difficult to fly the mountains if you keep a few items
> in mind.
>
> Scott
>
> PS, If you haven't read Imeson's book, Mountain Flying, get it now.
> http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html
>
>
>
> Terry Miles wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for me. I
>> am
>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>> nice a
>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>
>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>> Temps
>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000. If
>> I
>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then the
>> KLMO
>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for big
>> wind
>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to get
>> in
>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the runway
>> up
>> again.
>>
>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule of
>> thumb
>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld temp
>> is
>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the engine
>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>> personal
>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is 3000,
>> what
>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>> 6500
>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>
>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>> really
>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that probably
>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>
>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>
>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>> above
>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high you
>> can't
>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the engine
>> is
>> making way less than 75% power.
>>
>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>> richen
>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>> 500-1000
>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some cooling if
>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>
>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
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