REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump

Brian Michalk michalk at awpi.com
Thu May 1 08:59:19 CDT 2008 

Ken,

I'm bypassing a lot of the unique components of the Franklin.
Using off the shelf Waterman Sprint Racing fuel pump. Had to machine an 
adapter for the Franklin.
Using Autronic EFI combine injection / ignition. Had to machine collar 
for crank pickups, machined tachometer sensor for #1 cylinder pulse.
Using the Skytec starter, and a single magneto.
The engine runs like a scalded dog on the Autronic ... that's a good 
thing (translation for Northerners and Aussies).
My homegrown backup CIS fuel injection runs well enough to fly with. 
Needs flight testing.

The airplane was moved to the airport two weeks ago. Wings mounted. 
Currently attaching ailerons/rudders/wing bits.

Ken C. Baker wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> I’m not positive, but it sounds like you might have the right-handed 
> fuel pump, in a left handed engine situation. I could be wrong, but 
> it’s something that I would check on. The part number should be 
> printed on the fuel pump itself.
>
> *A few words on the Franklin 6A350-C1L (that is, the Left-handed 
> Franklin, the /sinistra/ Franklin) Please note, these are not “factory 
> opinions” nor do they represent 100% factual knowledge. These are 
> merely my own thoughts and experiences in the matter:*
>
> I am, by no means, an expert on Franklin engines (or aircraft engines 
> in general for that matter) nor am I an A&P. So take everything that I 
> say with a grain of salt. But for the last several months. I have 
> acted as the de facto project manager on a Franklin 6A-350-C1L engine 
> installation taking place in the Velocity Service Center on an SE-RG. 
> So I might have a few insights to share that prospective and current 
> C1L owners might find interesting or useful.
>
> First off, notice that I said, “for several months…” A normal Lycoming 
> or Continental engine installation at the Velocity Service Center 
> will, as a general rule, take us a few /days./ This is primarily due 
> to ready parts availability for these engines. Since PZL stopped 
> production on the 6A-350, it has become increasingly difficult to find 
> parts for Franklin engines – engine accessories in particular. Even 
> more so for the rarer C1L engine. As such, as I have spent at least 7 
> or 8 months trying – in vain so far – to put together the proper 
> accessories for a C1L engine in order to make it run.
>
> A little back-story: When Velocity first started supporting the 
> Franklin engine, the most common variant was the C1R. The Velocity 
> Franklin Engine Mount was specifically engineered to allow proper 
> clearance between the firewall and the popular engine accessories 
> available during that time for the C1R engine. That is to say: we 
> distanced the engine from the firewall in order to properly 
> accommodate the Skytec FvST-1 Franklin starter, and the Slick 6399 
> magneto. Note: these are both right-handed accessories for 
> right-handed engines, and significantly smaller than what is generally 
> available on the market for left-handed Franklin engines.
>
> Soon after Velocity introduced “Franklin Engine Installation Support” 
> more and more left-handed engines started turning up that people were 
> interested in putting into their Velocity aircraft. It is my 
> understanding that these were all Vietnam-era surplus helicopter 
> engines that PZL developed as variants from the original US Franklin’s 
> application in the Republic Sea-Bee. At the time, PZL would grant 
> “distributorship” and the discounts that came with it to anyone who 
> could put together an order for a certain number of engines. So 
> several of these left-handed engines came pouring into the country by 
> people looking to get a good deal. The engine in my care was 
> originally distributed by “Atlas Motors,” and the paperwork shows that 
> it came with accessory installation kits, but no accessories (that is, 
> no mags, no starter, no alternator, etc.) Please note that this should 
> by no means be interpreted as a disparaging remark against Atlas 
> Motors, or the people involved. The simple fact was, these were sold 
> as “crate motors” – and the acquisition of the accessories was left to 
> the end consumer.
>
> Since these motors were readily available, and cheap – people started 
> buying them for Velocity’s since an ‘installation kit’ was sold, even 
> though Velocity had originally developed this kit for the C1R engine. 
> What was not known at the time was that PZL would soon cease 
> production of the engine, and that some of the 3^rd party companies 
> that made accessories for the engine would quit supplying aftermarket 
> parts. For instance: Sky-tec encountered problems with several of 
> their Franklin starters. The bendix gear on the starter would, in some 
> cases, destroy itself against the gears on the engine accessory pad. 
> This caused several Sky-tec equipped Franklin engines to have to be 
> prematurely overhauled due to metal contamination in the crank case. 
> Sky-tec has since discontinued production of this starter. I have been 
> told, that it was because of this problem. I do not know if this is 
> true or not.
>
> I have also been told that it was possible to take the parts from two 
> of these (right-handed) sky-tec starters and to cannibalize certain 
> components to make a left-handed starter. I have not found anyone who 
> could tell me any more about this. (someone please, fill me in!) For 
> lack of a starter for the engine in my care, I had to opt for the big, 
> heavy, Prestolite starter. As well, the counter-clockwise rotating 
> (read: left-handed) Prestolite starter is /extremely/ difficult to 
> find. I spent months trying to track one down. Months. I’m sure there 
> were many resources that I didn’t use (the Sea-bee guys, the 
> Franklin-Velocity community, etc.) but the simple fact that I couldn’t 
> call an aero-parts warehouse, and the US Franklin Engine experts and 
> immediately find what I needed gave me cause for some concern, and 
> should act as a warning for anyone interested in a “Left-handed 
> Franklin Velocity Project.” I’m not saying that it can’t be done, I’m 
> just saying do your homework first.
>
> After my early problems in tracking down the starter - the /first/ 
> part on my list for the owner of the aircraft, I must admit, I spent a 
> significant amount of time trying to convince him of the wisdom of 
> investing in a Lycoming. He decided that he wanted to stick with the 
> Franklin, so I went back to work.
>
> Since then, I have discovered a few other things: As far as magnetos 
> are concerned, PZL originally spec’d two magnetos for the C1R, a 
> Bendix (The part number of which escapes me right now), and an 
> equivalent Slick (the 6399, I believe), which was much smaller, and 
> lighter. However, for the C1L, they have only spec’d Bendix mags. (the 
> 10-340379-9, and the 10-340379-4) – one of which I have been entirely 
> unsuccessful in tracking down, the other of which, I finally recently 
> found and purchased. (So, Jeff, the short answer is: yes, a magneto 
> /is/ available for this engine. Read on.) However, there is a problem 
> with this magneto, or a problem with the Velocity Franklin Engine 
> Mount, or a problem with the firewall, or a problem with the Velocity 
> Center section spar. Interpret it how you will. You see, the sheer 
> size of this magneto, and it’s location on the Franklin accessory pad, 
> causes it to interfere with the fire-wall. In some (very rare) cases, 
> a large accessory can be accommodated by forming a recess in the 
> firewall, and reinforcing that area. However, the location of the 
> magneto on the accessory pad, if a recess were to be made, would 
> directly interfere with the center section spar. That is: the only way 
> to fit the damn magneto on its pad would be to grind a hole through 
> the firewall and into the spar-cap. It should go unsaid that making 
> holes in your spar-cap is not an option. All of this is a 
> long-way-round way of saying that in my experience, there is a reason 
> that everyone with a left-handed Franklin has two electronic 
> ignitions. Because they couldn’t find a magneto that would work. Now, 
> this might not be the case – I wasn’t working at Velocity when the 
> Franklin was en vogue, so I’m sure there’s someone out there who knows 
> better than me. Please, someone out there correct me. If I can get a 
> magneto onto this engine, I would love it. In fact, *I will /give/ 
> away a set of the new cast-aluminum toe-brake pedals to the first 
> person who can give me the part-number and source of a magneto that 
> will fit on this engine without interfering with the firewall.* In the 
> mean time though, I have all but given up on the security, redundancy, 
> and peace of mind that a magneto would provide for the safe operation 
> of this engine, and am about to order a second Lightspeed Electronic 
> Ignition system.
>
> OK, so I’ve covered starters and magnetos – what’s next? Alternators 
> and voltage regulators are generally available – the marvel schebler 
> MA-5 carburetor is more rare, but can be found – so lets move on to 
> fuel pumps. In my experience, the AD-Compliant mechanically driven 
> fuel pump for the C1R is generally available, but you have to know 
> where to look. Good sources for Franklin parts in general (and 
> knowledge and advice) are: Bruce Kown of Classic Aire – John at 
> Franklin in Ft. Collins, CO – and Susan Prall at Franklin in Jewett, 
> Texas. There’s also a guy named Greg Lucas who seems to be /the/ guy 
> for Franklin overhauls. However, the AD-Compliant fuel pump for the 
> C1L has proven to be all but impossible to find. Maybe I’m not looking 
> in the right places. But I haven’t found one. When I was first tasked 
> with finding accessories for this project, I immediately called Brian 
> Michalk to get the new fuel pump. That is, I called Brian the same 
> day. Without ever having looked at the engine. Without realizing that 
> it was left-hand turning. Chalk this up to me being an idiot. (Note to 
> Velocity builders: don’t let me handle parts acquisition for your 
> service center project.) Brian immediately shipped the right-handed 
> fuel pump that I told him I needed. I soon found out that it was 
> entirely inappropriate for this engine. Since then, I haven’t been 
> able to find the left-handed fuel-pump. But it should also be said 
> that the owner of the engine soon gave us the command to fuel-inject 
> the engine, so we had to go with a different fuel pump entirely, so I 
> gave up looking for the other pump. (Fuel injection has proven to be 
> an entirely different can of worms which I won’t go into here. If 
> anyone is interested, contact me, and I’ll talk your ear off.)
>
> Regardless, I feel as though I’m rambling at this point. So I’ll try 
> to cut it short: it is my belief that the Velocity Franklin Engine 
> install kit was originally designed around a C1R engine with 
> accessories that are no longer available. Finding accessories today 
> has proven difficult for the C1L given their rarity and lack of fit 
> with engine/engine-mount/firewall/spar. I would love to hear any and 
> all Franklin owners chime in with corrections, additions, and 
> suggestions. (Brian Michalk? Hiroo Umeno? Dave Wilson? Jerry Tietsma? 
> Rick Lavoie? Others?)
>
> By the way, Jeff – when you and I spoke last you placed an order for a 
> throttle cable for the Franklin application – and told me that you 
> wished to use it as co-pilot control. I have been waiting on the same 
> cable for use in our service center project from our cable 
> manufacturer. But as of yesterday, one of our service center guys, 
> Rick, has found a way to route an off-the-shelf cable that we keep in 
> stock for use as a co-pilot throttle control in the Franklin 
> application. I’ll call you about it tomorrow.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -Ken Baker
>
> kenb at velocityaircraft.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] 
> *On Behalf Of *Jeff Howell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:36 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
>
>
> ken I believe my engine is a 6a-350-c1l I just looked at the engine 
> logs and that is what it is telling me. I am not sure of the fuel pump 
> but the engine doesnt run without the boost pump. thankx I will call 
> you tomorrow. Jeff
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: kenb at velocityaircraft.com
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:40:13 -0400
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
>
> Jeff,
>
> I believe that PZL originally manufactured the mechanically driven 
> pumps after they issued the emergency AD on the old style diaphragm 
> pumps that were failing. The part number will either be PLL-7-6R 
> (26.11.8300) for right-handed Franklin 6A350-C1, and 6A-350C1R 
> engines, or PLL-7-6L (26.11.8310) for left-handed Franklin 6A350-C1L 
> engine.
>
> We have an aircraft in the Service Center right now equipped with a 
> Franklin that we have been asked to finish. Since taking on the 
> project, the owner decided to try to fuel inject the engine, and the 
> PZL mechanical fuel pump is incapable of producing the pressures 
> necessary for this. We have no real need for the PZL mechanical pump 
> anymore. If you're interested, contact me off the Reflector.
>
> I originally got the fuel pump in my possession from Brian Michalk. 
> I'm sure that he probably has another that he'd be willing to part with.
>
> While on the subject, I don't suppose anyone on the Reflector is 
> running a left-handed Franklin? The 6A-350C1L model?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -Ken Baker
>
> kenb at velocityaircraft.com <mailto:kenb at velocityaircraft.com>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] 
> *On Behalf Of *Jeff Howell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:15 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
>
>
> ken, How much do you want for the fuel pump? where can I get one and 
> what is the part # Thanx Jeff
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: kenb at velocityaircraft.com
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:14:46 -0400
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
>
> Don,
>
> I'm not sure about repair - but if you need a new AD compliant 
> Franklin fuel pump for a carbureted application on a 6A-350-C1R, I've 
> got one.
>
> Best,
>
> -Ken Baker
>
> kenb at velocityaircraft.com <mailto:kenb at velocityaircraft.com>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] 
> *On Behalf Of *John Dibble
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:41 AM
> *To:* djroyer at earthlink.net; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
>
> My Franklin just started leaking oil around the fuel pump. Not sure 
> yet exactly where it's coming from. Don, any update on what you have 
> done? John Donald Royer wrote:
>
> Oil is coming out of the vent hole in my PZL rotatory fuel pump. Am I 
> the first one o have this problem? Does anyone know whether it can be 
> repaired? Looking at the illustated parts list, it seems to me that 
> the only thing that might be a candidate for replacement is something 
> called a needle bearing. Can anyone help me with this. The pump has 
> less than one hundred hours on it. If it cannot be repaied, does 
> anyone know if or where a new one might be available? Donald Royer
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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