REFLECTOR: History
steve korney
s_korney at hotmail.com
Thu Jul 10 20:33:29 CDT 2008
Ronnie... He's got the one that Alan and Malcolm built in California for the doctor...... Good Velocity...
Best... Steve
> From: romott at mi-connection.com
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:35:21 -0400
> Subject: REFLECTOR: History
>
> Jon,
>
> There is a pretty good history of the Velocities at Brett's excellent web
> site http://n44vf.velocityxl.com/velocity_history.php
>
> The Velocities are great aircraft - and it all started with the Std that
> Danny, Duane and Scott created!
>
> Ronnie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Bachman" <jbachman at zianet.com>
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:38 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>
>
> > I'm not building (purchased built) but own a Std RG and would like to be
> > able to read about my Velo's "vintage".
> >
> > Jon Bachman
> > N956DR
> > Std RG
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> > Behalf Of doug.holub at tx.rr.com
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:15 AM
> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> > Cc: Ron Brown
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >
> > My plans (1987 Standard FG) call for the aileron cables to go under the
> > spar, but I found that the geometry worked out better and there was a
> > larger
> > turning radius if I ran the cables above the baggage compartment and over
> > the spar. My bell crank points straight up and there's a lovely 90 degree
> > angle there.
> >
> > Is there anybody here on the Reflector building an old standard top door
> > fuselage? If not, I'll quit posting stuff that only applies to that
> > vintage
> > because nobody probably cares.
> >
> > Doug Holub
> > plane is at the airport!
> > ---- Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com> wrote:
> >> Well, look at http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLR.pdf - the
> > XLRG
> >> goes through the middle of the spar web.
> >>
> >> There appears to be a number of ways to install the aileron controls. My
> >> paper manual that came with the kit in 1999 showed the cable going
> >> through
> >
> >> the firewall and to the aileron bracket pretty much horizontal. This
> > causes
> >> the aileron bell crank to come within a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the valve
> > covers
> >> when the aileron is down - too close for comfort! The new manuals have
> > the
> >> cable housing coming in from a lower position and hence the bell crank
> >> doesn't travel as close to the valve covers. My installation provides
> > much
> >> better clearance from the valve covers.
> >>
> >> Ronnie
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Brett Ferrell" <reflector at velocityxl.com>
> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> Cc: <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:48 AM
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ronnie,
> >> >
> >> > That's actually not correct, the current (at least fixed-gear) XL
> >> > manual
> >
> >> > says to drill just below the spar.
> >> > http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLF.pdf
> >> >
> >> > Brett
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> -------Original Message-------
> >> >> From: Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> Sent: 10 Jul '08 07:13
> >> >>
> >> >> The manual calls for going through the middle part of the web - for
> > both
> >> >> the
> >> >> XL and Std (mine is a 173 RG).
> >> >>
> >> >> As I mentioned, I relocated mine to the lower part of the web. The
> >> >> web
> >
> >> >> is
> >> >> rather thin - only one or perhaps two plies of BID.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ronnie
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Keith Hallsten" <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
> >> >> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:50 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Ronnie,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You drilled through the spar web for a hole to run the aileron
> > cables
> >> >> > through? I'm sure the cables in my XL run entirely below the spar.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Keith Hallsten
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> >> >> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
> >
> >> >> On
> >> >> > Behalf Of Ron Brown
> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:03 AM
> >> >> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> >> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, the cable comes out just above the lower spar cap. If you get
> > too
> >> >> > low,
> >> >> > you'll have problems making the transition back to the keel
> >> >> bracket.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ronnie
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
> >> >> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:13 PM
> >> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Thanks Ron! I appreciate the info. Apparently, the cables
> >> >> penetrate
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> firewall below the lower spar cap?
> >> >> >> Gordon
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:37 AM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Yes, my changes did result in more up than down aileron travel. I
> >> >> don't
> >> >> >>> have
> >> >> >>> the measurements since I gave the new owner all of my manuals and
> >> >> paper
> >> >> >>> notes.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I have attached two pictures that show the aileron in the up and
> >> >> down
> >> >> >>> positions. The 1/4" socket extension clamped to the inverted
> >> >> aileron
> >> >> >>> cable
> >> >> >>> brackets approximate the revised location of the aileron control
> >> >> cables
> >> >> >>> when
> >> >> >>> attached.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Ronnie
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
> >> >> >>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:49 PM
> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> Ron, did your change result in 2.5" down and up? I want to do
> >> >> this
> >> >> >>>> change
> >> >> >>>> as well and would appreciate some numbers on your actual final
> >> >> >>>> measurements.
> >> >> >>>> Thanks,
> >> >> >>>> Gordon Putney
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >> >>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:13 PM
> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Hi Joe,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> From my RC modeling days, I learned that to minimize adverse
> > yaw,
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> ailerons should go up more than they go down. Although we have
> >> >> Frieze
> >> >> >>>>> ailerons (the nose sticks down when the aileron is up), there
> >> >> is
> >
> >> >> still
> >> >> >>>>> a
> >> >> >>>>> tendency toward adverse yaw. Especially since the attach point
> >> >> for
> >> >> >>>>> the
> >> >> >>>>> aileron cables at the back of the keel is not 90 degrees.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> So, to improve the situation, I installed my aileron bell
> >> >> cranks
> >> >> >>>>> beside
> >> >> >>>>> the
> >> >> >>>>> engine with a good bit of bias toward the front. I also
> >> >> lowered
> >
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> attach
> >> >> >>>>> point for the aileron cable jacket. This helps relieve the
> >> >> "error" at
> >> >> >>>>> the
> >> >> >>>>> keel as well as move the bellcranks away from the engine (but
> > your
> >> >> >>>>> rotary
> >> >> >>>>> is
> >> >> >>>>> narrower than the Lycoming so not an issue). The aileron bell
> >> >> crank
> >> >> >>>>> is
> >> >> >>>>> more
> >> >> >>>>> like 90 degrees to the cable when the aileron is down.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Here's a note that I wrote in 2003 that is repetitive but adds
> >> >> some
> >> >> >>>>> more
> >> >> >>>>> info:
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> When I rigged my ailerons, I found it difficult to obtain the
> >> >> equal
> >> >> >>>>> 2.5"
> >> >> >>>>> up
> >> >> >>>>> and 2.5" down that is called for in the manuals - for my 173
> > Elite
> >> >> RG.
> >> >> >>>>> Since the push/pull cables at the rear of the keel do not have
> >> >> a
> >
> >> >> 90
> >> >> >>>>> degree
> >> >> >>>>> approach angle, the connection of the push/pull cable at the
> >> >> aileron
> >> >> >>>>> torque
> >> >> >>>>> tube on the wing, results in ailerons that travel down more
> >> >> than
> >
> >> >> they
> >> >> >>>>> do
> >> >> >>>>> up.
> >> >> >>>>> This causes an adverse yaw condition which will lead to
> > wallowing
> >> >> at
> >> >> >>>>> low
> >> >> >>>>> speeds.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> I learned this lesson a long time ago when flying RC models.
> >> >> If
> >
> >> >> you
> >> >> >>>>> take
> >> >> >>>>> off at just above stall speed, the model would turn the
> >> >> opposite
> >> >> >>>>> direction
> >> >> >>>>> from that commanded. This is because the aileron that is going
> >> >> down
> >> >> >>>>> has
> >> >> >>>>> more drag than the one going up. This causes the left wing to
> > slow
> >> >> >>>>> down
> >> >> >>>>> if
> >> >> >>>>> you are commanding a right turn at slow speeds. This is called
> >> >> >>>>> adverse
> >> >> >>>>> yaw
> >> >> >>>>> and is common in older airplanes. To get a coordinated turn,
> > even
> >> >> at
> >> >> >>>>> speed,
> >> >> >>>>> you need to lead with a lot of rudder before applying aileron
> >> >> >>>>> deflection.
> >> >> >>>>> Or, you rig the ailerons so that there is more up travel than
> >> >> there is
> >> >> >>>>> down
> >> >> >>>>> travel, which will reduce this yaw effect.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Cessnas and some other planes (including our Velocities) have a
> >> >> Frieze
> >> >> >>>>> aileron, which features a lip that hangs down below the wing
> > when
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> aileron is deflected upwards. This helps balance the drag from
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> other
> >> >> >>>>> aileron which is hanging down in the airstream.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Velocities handle fine at higher speeds even with no rudder
> > input.
> >> >> >>>>> But
> >> >> >>>>> at
> >> >> >>>>> lower speeds, if the ailerons are rigged with the 90 degree
> >> >> approach
> >> >> >>>>> angle
> >> >> >>>>> at the wing, then this results in more down than up aileron
> >> >> travel,
> >> >> >>>>> and
> >> >> >>>>> the
> >> >> >>>>> adverse yaw condition that some folks have called "wallowing"
> >> >> on
> >> >> >>>>> final.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> A while back, Dave Black pointed out the problem at the keel.
> > One
> >> >> fix
> >> >> >>>>> is
> >> >> >>>>> to
> >> >> >>>>> build a wide bellcrank at the back of the keel so that the
> > aileron
> >> >> >>>>> cables
> >> >> >>>>> could be attached at a 90 degree approach angle while in the
> >> >> neutral
> >> >> >>>>> (centered) condition.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> The other way is to attach the aileron cable at the wing so
> >> >> that
> >
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> approach angle is more than 90 degrees. Mine are attached at
> >> >> about
> >> >> >>>>> 120
> >> >> >>>>> degrees, which results in more up travel than down travel. My
> >> >> >>>>> Velocity
> >> >> >>>>> handles fine at low speeds, with just aileron control, similar
> > to
> >> >> my
> >> >> >>>>> Cessna
> >> >> >>>>> 172. If I need a sharper turn, I'll kick in more rudder, just
> >> >> like in
> >> >> >>>>> my
> >> >> >>>>> 172. But normally, no rudder is needed, all the way down to
> >> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> runway.
> >> >> >>>>> (But I also installed VG's before my first flight, these also
> >> >> improve
> >> >> >>>>> low
> >> >> >>>>> speed aileron control).
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Ronnie Brown
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>>>> From: <jewen at comporium.net>
> >> >> >>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:42 AM
> >> >> >>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>I am rigging up my aileron this weekend (173RG.) I recall
> > several
> >> >> >>>>>>threads
> >> >> >>>>>>on the subject in the past, but can't find my notes. Does
> > anyone
> >> >> mind
> >> >> >>>>>>refreshing me on the nuances that the manual does not address.
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >> >>>>>> Joe
> >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>>>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> >>>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> >>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> >>>>>> Check old archives:
> >> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> >>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> >>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> >>>>> Check old archives:
> >> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> >>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> >>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> >>>> Check old archives:
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > ----
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> >>> Check old archives:
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> >> Check old archives:
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> > Check old archives:
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> > Check old archives:
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>
> >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> Check old archives:
> > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> >>
> >>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >
> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >>
> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
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