REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
Brett Ferrell
reflector at velocityxl.com
Thu Jul 10 09:35:40 CDT 2008
Ronnie,
Thanks, I wasn't making any claim regarding what's better, just the statement that all of the manuals said to drill through the spar web. It's entirely possible that the XL/FG manual is meant to show this as well, but it doesn't today.
Brett
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> Sent: 10 Jul '08 09:15
>
> Well, look at http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLR.pdf - the XLRG
> goes through the middle of the spar web.
>
> There appears to be a number of ways to install the aileron controls. My
> paper manual that came with the kit in 1999 showed the cable going through
> the firewall and to the aileron bracket pretty much horizontal. This causes
> the aileron bell crank to come within a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the valve covers
> when the aileron is down - too close for comfort! The new manuals have the
> cable housing coming in from a lower position and hence the bell crank
> doesn't travel as close to the valve covers. My installation provides much
> better clearance from the valve covers.
>
> Ronnie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brett Ferrell" <reflector at velocityxl.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Cc: <romott at mi-connection.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>
>
> > Ronnie,
> >
> > That's actually not correct, the current (at least fixed-gear) XL manual
> > says to drill just below the spar.
> > http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLF.pdf
> >
> > Brett
> >
> >
> >> -------Original Message-------
> >> From: Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> Sent: 10 Jul '08 07:13
> >>
> >> The manual calls for going through the middle part of the web - for both
> >> the
> >> XL and Std (mine is a 173 RG).
> >>
> >> As I mentioned, I relocated mine to the lower part of the web. The web
> >> is
> >> rather thin - only one or perhaps two plies of BID.
> >>
> >> Ronnie
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Keith Hallsten" <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
> >> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:50 AM
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ronnie,
> >> >
> >> > You drilled through the spar web for a hole to run the aileron cables
> >> > through? I'm sure the cables in my XL run entirely below the spar.
> >> >
> >> > Keith Hallsten
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
> >> On
> >> > Behalf Of Ron Brown
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:03 AM
> >> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >
> >> > No, the cable comes out just above the lower spar cap. If you get too
> >> > low,
> >> > you'll have problems making the transition back to the keel bracket.
> >> >
> >> > Ronnie
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
> >> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:13 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks Ron! I appreciate the info. Apparently, the cables
> >> penetrate
> >> >> the
> >> >> firewall below the lower spar cap?
> >> >> Gordon
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:37 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, my changes did result in more up than down aileron travel. I
> >> don't
> >> >>> have
> >> >>> the measurements since I gave the new owner all of my manuals and
> >> paper
> >> >>> notes.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have attached two pictures that show the aileron in the up and
> >> down
> >> >>> positions. The 1/4" socket extension clamped to the inverted
> >> aileron
> >> >>> cable
> >> >>> brackets approximate the revised location of the aileron control
> >> cables
> >> >>> when
> >> >>> attached.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ronnie
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
> >> >>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:49 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Ron, did your change result in 2.5" down and up? I want to do
> >> this
> >> >>>> change
> >> >>>> as well and would appreciate some numbers on your actual final
> >> >>>> measurements.
> >> >>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>> Gordon Putney
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:13 PM
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Hi Joe,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> From my RC modeling days, I learned that to minimize adverse yaw,
> >> the
> >> >>>>> ailerons should go up more than they go down. Although we have
> >> Frieze
> >> >>>>> ailerons (the nose sticks down when the aileron is up), there is
> >> still
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> tendency toward adverse yaw. Especially since the attach point
> >> for
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> aileron cables at the back of the keel is not 90 degrees.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> So, to improve the situation, I installed my aileron bell cranks
> >> >>>>> beside
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> engine with a good bit of bias toward the front. I also lowered
> >> the
> >> >>>>> attach
> >> >>>>> point for the aileron cable jacket. This helps relieve the
> >> "error" at
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> keel as well as move the bellcranks away from the engine (but your
> >> >>>>> rotary
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> narrower than the Lycoming so not an issue). The aileron bell
> >> crank
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> more
> >> >>>>> like 90 degrees to the cable when the aileron is down.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Here's a note that I wrote in 2003 that is repetitive but adds
> >> some
> >> >>>>> more
> >> >>>>> info:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> When I rigged my ailerons, I found it difficult to obtain the
> >> equal
> >> >>>>> 2.5"
> >> >>>>> up
> >> >>>>> and 2.5" down that is called for in the manuals - for my 173 Elite
> >> RG.
> >> >>>>> Since the push/pull cables at the rear of the keel do not have a
> >> 90
> >> >>>>> degree
> >> >>>>> approach angle, the connection of the push/pull cable at the
> >> aileron
> >> >>>>> torque
> >> >>>>> tube on the wing, results in ailerons that travel down more than
> >> they
> >> >>>>> do
> >> >>>>> up.
> >> >>>>> This causes an adverse yaw condition which will lead to wallowing
> >> at
> >> >>>>> low
> >> >>>>> speeds.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I learned this lesson a long time ago when flying RC models. If
> >> you
> >> >>>>> take
> >> >>>>> off at just above stall speed, the model would turn the opposite
> >> >>>>> direction
> >> >>>>> from that commanded. This is because the aileron that is going
> >> down
> >> >>>>> has
> >> >>>>> more drag than the one going up. This causes the left wing to slow
> >> >>>>> down
> >> >>>>> if
> >> >>>>> you are commanding a right turn at slow speeds. This is called
> >> >>>>> adverse
> >> >>>>> yaw
> >> >>>>> and is common in older airplanes. To get a coordinated turn, even
> >> at
> >> >>>>> speed,
> >> >>>>> you need to lead with a lot of rudder before applying aileron
> >> >>>>> deflection.
> >> >>>>> Or, you rig the ailerons so that there is more up travel than
> >> there is
> >> >>>>> down
> >> >>>>> travel, which will reduce this yaw effect.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Cessnas and some other planes (including our Velocities) have a
> >> Frieze
> >> >>>>> aileron, which features a lip that hangs down below the wing when
> >> the
> >> >>>>> aileron is deflected upwards. This helps balance the drag from
> >> the
> >> >>>>> other
> >> >>>>> aileron which is hanging down in the airstream.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Velocities handle fine at higher speeds even with no rudder input.
> >> >>>>> But
> >> >>>>> at
> >> >>>>> lower speeds, if the ailerons are rigged with the 90 degree
> >> approach
> >> >>>>> angle
> >> >>>>> at the wing, then this results in more down than up aileron
> >> travel,
> >> >>>>> and
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> adverse yaw condition that some folks have called "wallowing" on
> >> >>>>> final.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> A while back, Dave Black pointed out the problem at the keel. One
> >> fix
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> to
> >> >>>>> build a wide bellcrank at the back of the keel so that the aileron
> >> >>>>> cables
> >> >>>>> could be attached at a 90 degree approach angle while in the
> >> neutral
> >> >>>>> (centered) condition.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The other way is to attach the aileron cable at the wing so that
> >> the
> >> >>>>> approach angle is more than 90 degrees. Mine are attached at
> >> about
> >> >>>>> 120
> >> >>>>> degrees, which results in more up travel than down travel. My
> >> >>>>> Velocity
> >> >>>>> handles fine at low speeds, with just aileron control, similar to
> >> my
> >> >>>>> Cessna
> >> >>>>> 172. If I need a sharper turn, I'll kick in more rudder, just
> >> like in
> >> >>>>> my
> >> >>>>> 172. But normally, no rudder is needed, all the way down to the
> >> >>>>> runway.
> >> >>>>> (But I also installed VG's before my first flight, these also
> >> improve
> >> >>>>> low
> >> >>>>> speed aileron control).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ronnie Brown
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>>> From: <jewen at comporium.net>
> >> >>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:42 AM
> >> >>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>I am rigging up my aileron this weekend (173RG.) I recall several
> >> >>>>>>threads
> >> >>>>>>on the subject in the past, but can't find my notes. Does anyone
> >> mind
> >> >>>>>>refreshing me on the nuances that the manual does not address.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>>>>> Check old archives:
> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>>>> Check old archives:
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> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >>>> Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ----
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>> Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>
> >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >
> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> > Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >
> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> > Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> To change your email address, visit
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >>
> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
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