REFLECTOR: Fiberglass stiffness

[Alex Balic]

Yea- there is a lot of difference between glass even of the same weight- if
you are ordering from spruce- get the "Rutan" weave- it is designed to be
very flexible and works great- it is a crowfoot type, and not woven too
tightly- I didn't pay attention the first time I ordered from spruce, and
just got their regular medium bid- too stiff, not workable- they allowed me
to return and swapped out for the Rutan cloth which they also supply.

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Brian Michalk
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:54 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass stiffness

Ken,

Thanks for the information.
We gave up and cleaned up the hardpoint to let it cure without the BID
layups.
I'll order some coarse BID, but if it comes down to it, I'll use the
fine bid we have, and just lay up from canard to shim on each side.

Ken C. Baker wrote:
> Brian,
>
> This happened to us at the factory awhile ago. One of our normal suppliers
> offered us some "7725 bi-directional cloth from a new manufacturer in
Korea"
> at a price that seemed too good to be true. We bought a small roll with
the
> understanding that if we didn't like it, we could return it. As it turns
out
> - the price *was* too good to be true. We couldn't work with this stuff to
> save our lives. Too stiff - wouldn't saturate properly.
>
> When ordering fiberglass - you do order by weight or by weave style,
> unfortunately it gets a little bit more complex when it comes to the
> finishes that are applied to the fiberglass. Most glass fibers are treated
> with starches during the looming  process that allow them to take the
rough
> handling associated with weaving. It is a critical part of the
manufacturing
> process for aerospace grade fiberglass to be cleaned after the weaving to
> remove the starches, and for a surfacing finish like Volan A to be
applied.
> There are different finishes for different applications and resins used.
> Volan A, in my experience, seems to be the most common for compatibility
> with epoxy based laminating systems.
>
> Occasionally you will see major fiberglass distributors offering
> "loom-state" goods at heavily discounted prices. Loom-state is code for
"no
> surface finish - use at your own risk." I have seen some of these cloths
> (especially carbon fiber) being resold (particularly on eBay) by less than
> scrupulous sellers promising "aerospace quality" goods. These cloths are
> fine if you want to make cosmetic trim pieces for a motor-cycle or
something
> like that - but my own advice is to *never* use fiberglass purchased on
eBay
> for structural applications. It is really important to know where your
> fiberglass came from, and to know that there is a paperwork trail and
> testing data that backs it up. Buy from a trusted source.
>
> When ordering glass online, I would also recommend against purchasing
glass
> which is described only by its weight and a "course" or "fine" weave
> description. Ordering by the weave style "7725," "7715," or "CDB-200" is a
> much more accurate way of ensuring that you're getting the right kind of
> glass. The lay-up schedules that are called for in the Velocity
construction
> manual were calculated with a specific weave and weight of fiber-glass in
> mind. 
>
> I would recommend laminating over the hard-points for the trim actuator.
> There's a fair amount of force that's applied during flight.
>
> Best,
>
> -Ken Baker
> kenb at velocityaircraft.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Brian Michalk
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:25 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass stiffness
>
> Yesterday we attempted to do some work with the canard trim hardpoints
where
> the actuator mounts.
>
> The fiberglass we bought from somewhere was coarse BID, but we could not
> convince it to lay down over the corners.  I compared it to some fine bid,
> and it's much stiffer than the fine BID.  The BID that came with the kit
was
> nice and floppy, so it would have made the corners just fine.
>
> How would I know what to order?  As far as I know, one orders by the weave
> (fine, coarse, etc.), and the cloth weight.  I haven't seen anything for
the
> stiffness of the cloth which would directly affect workability.
>
> We gave up, and left the wood shim and AL hardpoint to cure as is.  We
used
> flox for our adhesive.  Do we really need to cover a wood shim with 2x bid
> as called for in the manual? 
>
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