REFLECTOR: Crossflow

[Scott Derrick]

Its good to have the rebuild signed off for resale value.

If you ever plan on selling that is....

Scott

Gary Stull wrote:
> As an experimental engine, no sign off is required for an engine rebuild to 
> my knowledge. The owner can do all the work. Having someone knowledgeable 
> look over your shoulder would be a wise invest though.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Scott Derrick" <scott at tnstaafl.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Crossflow
> 
> 
>> Matt,
>>
>> I think its time to find another A&P IA guy.
>>
>> You rebuilding an IO540 is perfectly reasonable, and easily doable if you
>> follow Lycoming's rebuild manual.  You will need the overhaul manual and
>> the  parts manual for your engine and the SB's that apply.
>>
>> I had rebuilt 10-12 auto engines before tackling an aircraft engine and
>> there just aint that much difference between a Lyc./Cont. and a Volkswagon
>> as far as procedures.
>>
>> Certainly you will "have" to send all the steel parts you intend to
>> reuse(crank included) and your case to Divco or ECI or somebody to have
>> them inspect and verify the parts are within spec.  Don't even think about
>> skimping on it.
>>
>> find somebody who will look over your shoulder and sign off the rebuild in
>> the engine logs for a small fee or some other arrangement.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>> More to think about. Thank to all. I wanted to rebuild the IO540 but I
>>> can't
>>> get my EAA IA guy to sign on for that. I like Andy's approach and am sure
>>> I
>>> would be able to perform the task. But without someone looking over my
>>> shoulder, keeping me on the right path, I will have to send it out.  I
>>> surely don't want to spend 8 grand to have the crank checked for cracks
>>> when
>>> I am able to turn nuts and bolts myself... you all know the score.
>>>
>>> I think I am going to cut my winglets now. It is sunny and warm outside.
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Andy Millin
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:57 PM
>>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Crossflow
>>>
>>>
>>> Len,
>>>
>>> Caveat, caveat, ad infinitim...
>>>
>>> Velocity builder Doug Hayes had posted information on his Crossflow
>>> experience on the reflector back on 8/26/2004.
>>>
>>> His story is long, sad, and very frustrating.
>>>
>>> I wrote to him off the reflector a couple times.  I wanted to check in. 
>>> I
>>> was hoping for a good outcome.
>>>
>>> I have the complete chain of all email exchanged, if anyone is interested
>>> contact me off the reflector.  Too long to post here.
>>>
>>> Last contact was 9 months ago and he still was not ready for engine start
>>> let alone flight.
>>>
>>> What broke my heart most was the experience had nearly, if not 
>>> completely,
>>> drained Doug of all desire to finish the project; and he has a completed
>>> airframe.
>>>
>>> I am like Ronnie, I like all types of engines.  I like all configurations
>>> of
>>> Velocity.  I want a ride in everyone's plane.  (I know, shameless)
>>>
>>> I can't wait to get my ride in Alex's plane.  Yeah, he can go first... 
>>> but
>>> ... :)
>>>
>>> When it comes to aircraft engines, you have to acknowledge you are in a
>>> new
>>> realm.  The money involved adds new perspective.  Engines can have market
>>> values $20K, $30K, $40K, and well above.   I just checked Crossflow's
>>> site.
>>> Their low end starts at $26K and goes up to $43.5.  It's up to you to
>>> decide
>>> if that's a lot of money.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to say you don't have to go far to find someone that has been
>>> taken for tens of thousands of dollars.  Left to wait for years hoping to
>>> have an engine delivered.
>>>
>>> When it comes to new engine packages, they are very appealing.  All the
>>> builders have a good story and will tell you why they are solid.  The
>>> desire
>>> to believe the story can be great (you'll wanna).  They will be likable
>>> people.
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to say everyone is a crook.  I guess I'm saying do your
>>> research.  Take your time.  Check references.  A bad decision on a major
>>> purchase can suck the life and joy out of your project.
>>>
>>> Len, I'm feeling a bit pedantic here.  But, when you've been around a
>>> while, you pick up a few things...
>>>
>>> FWIW:
>>>
>>> I don't know of anyone flying with a Crossflow in a Velocity
>>>
>>> Bob Bols (XL/RG) has purchased an engine from Jason Day at Vesta.
>>> He had not received the engine as of OSH 2007.  Love to have an update.
>>>
>>> I don't know if anyone has purchased the French rotary engine that
>>> was on display at OSH...
>>>
>>> I don't know if anyone has purchased an Eggenfeller for a Velocity.
>>>
>>> I know builders that put money down on the Deltahawk.  The good
>>> people, and they are good people, at Deltahawk are still working on it.
>>> Over the years I have heard them speak several times.  Their work is
>>> impressive.  Unfortunately each presentation put them in final testing,
>>> final mods before production, and they will be shipping in six months.
>>> The
>>> first time I heard this was in 2003.  The last time was at Velocity
>>> University.
>>>
>>> Others have built the engines themselves:  Alex, Al Gietzen, Kurt
>>> Winker, Chris Barber, Dave Bertram, Bill Mulrooney.  These gentlemen have
>>> flown, or are very close to it.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of len.baxter at gm.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:41 PM
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron.... thanks for the caution !!!     Is anyone flying a Crossflow
>>> sucessfully??
>>>
>>>
>>> Len Baxter
>>> XLRG-5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ron Brown" <romott at roadrunner.com>
>>> Sent by: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>
>>> 12/04/2007 02:22 PM
>>> Please respond to
>>> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>
>>> To
>>> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc
>>> Subject
>>> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I had written the following to Alex but since Matt and Len have mentioned
>>> the Crossflow engines, let me share what I know about Crossflow and to
>>> caution folks to be VERY CAREFUL before you spend any money.  There is
>>> another Velocity builder out there that ordered and paid for an engine 
>>> and
>>> had not received it as of a year or so ago.  I hadn't planned on sharing
>>> the
>>> note to Alex with the Reflector crowd, but since at least two of you are
>>> considering the engine - I didn't want to see anyone else taken to the
>>> cleaners (Dick paid as much for his FWF Crossflow, 4 cylinder turbo 
>>> engine
>>> as I did my Don George Lycasarus IO360.)  I have 360 hours of reliable
>>> flying - Dick is still trying to get his airplane back home.
>>>
>>> Alex,
>>> I wanted to update you on my friend, Dick Healy and his 4 cylinder, turbo
>>> charged Crossflow Subaru mounted on his Lancair 320 in 2004.
>>>
>>> He has spent much of the summer in Canada after trailering his airplane 
>>> to
>>> Crossflow to get the engine running right. (He got his engine after many
>>> delays in 2004).  They are on the third engine now (at least one engine
>>> was
>>> fried from running too lean), added an intercooler due to high combustion
>>> air temps.  The third engine has flown once and with winter setting in, 
>>> it
>>> may be next year before they can confirm the flyability of the current
>>> setup.
>>>
>>> Just wanted you to know that Jorge may not know all he needs to know 
>>> about
>>> the ECU and engine operations.  On one of his trips down to NC to tune 
>>> the
>>> ECU, he told Dick he did not think it was advisable to provide a cool air
>>> source to the turbo inlet.  You and I both know, the cooler the air, the
>>> better the engine performance will be (well short of carb icing - but
>>> these
>>> engines ARE fuel injected).  I couldn't believe Jorge had advised against
>>> the cool air scoop.  Now, he understands that not only does it need a 
>>> cool
>>> air source, it also needs to have an intercooler to keep combustion air
>>> down
>>> to a reasonable temperature.
>>>
>>> Good luck with your engine - I feel better about what you are doing 
>>> versus
>>> buying a firewall forward (rearward) from Crossflow.  They make a pretty
>>> engine, but I question his engine knowledge.  Last I heard, he has sold 
>>> 60
>>> engines.  None are in reliable flying conditions yet!  Dick says there is
>>> one other flying engine at Crossflow, but it hasn't left the area yet.
>>>
>>> Reflector Gang:  I love auto engines as much as anyone.  I have been a 
>>> hot
>>> rodder for years, built several engines including a Chevy small block in 
>>> a
>>> 53 Studebaker coupe.  But, if you want reliable power for your Velocity,
>>> an
>>> engine that will keep you flying for a long time on a single rebuild, and
>>> can actually get pretty good fuel burns with a matched set of injector
>>> nozzles and good EGT/CHT monitoring (I get 8 GPH at 2600 rpm and 155 
>>> knots
>>> in my 173 Elite RG.  In a standard wing, you can add at least 15 knots to
>>> the cruise speed.  Oh and I hung my engine and installed all of the FW
>>> backwards in a little over a month.  Everything works as installed
>>> originally.  It starts easily, runs cool, and is very dependable.
>>>
>>> Ronnie Brown
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: len.baxter at gm.com <mailto:len.baxter at gm.com>
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
>>> <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>>
>>> Go for it Matt !!.....there are a lot of us who have ( or will have )
>>> abandoned the 70+ yr old technology represented by  Cont  and Lyc.   I am
>>> leaning towards a GM LS2, or a 3 rotor rotary, or the crossflow 
>>> turbo.....
>>> hard to choose.
>>>
>>>
>>> Len Baxter
>>> XLRG-5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Matt Bucko" <mbuc310 at cox.net <mailto:mbuc310 at cox.net> > Sent by:
>>> reflector-bounces at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>
>>>
>>> 12/04/2007 12:27 PM
>>>
>>> Please respond to
>>> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To
>>> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc
>>> Subject
>>> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you. Most impressed here.  I have been toying with selling my IO540
>>> and going with something else. Deltahawk still has to deliver... I have
>>> seen
>>> the Crossflow site before.  Nice build.
>>> Matt
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Alex Balic
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:27 AM
>>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>> Hi Matt-
>>> I got a used engine with 48k miles on it- nice thing about SVX owners is
>>> that they take really good care of their cars- when I opened it up, oil
>>> was
>>> like new, still had the burnish marks on the cylinder sleeves.  I  ported
>>> and polished the heads, replaced the stock high compression pistons with
>>> low
>>> compression ones for use with the turbocharger- removed the stock intake
>>> manifold, welded up a lower profile, and much lighter one, re-ground the
>>> cams slightly, and built the exhaust up one bend at a time to ensure that
>>> it
>>> would fit in the velocity cowling. Also had to re-locate the alternator
>>> for
>>> the same reason. I must add that I got a lot of help from Jorge Alonzo up
>>> at
>>> Crossflow Aero in Canada- he made the engine mount -which is a work of
>>> art-
>>> and I am using his ECU setup / wiring harness as well as their PSRU.
>>> Intercooler is from a T-210 that I found on EBay for $43 including the
>>> pressure relief valve, which I have had reset to 5psi, and I have a Teil
>>> external waste gate to control the turbo.  Turbo was built by Majestic
>>> Turbochargers here in Dallas .  Overall, it has been a long road to get 
>>> to
>>> this point- I suppose could have purchased a firewall back setup from
>>> Crosslfow but wouldn't have learned nearly as much, and they are pretty
>>> proud of their 300+ hp units up there-
>>> Engine runs ridiculously smooth though- I think I am getting more
>>> vibration
>>> from the fuel pumps...
>>> PS- other nice thing- I can get an factory new assembled short block from
>>> Subaru for $3600- might just do that at overhaul time...
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:54 AM
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>> Who built it?
>>> Matt
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Alex Balic
>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:48 PM
>>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>> Estimated at 325hp at 4 lbs of boost- I can set the boost up to 16 psi 
>>> and
>>> get maybe 500 hp- but I don't want to put that much stress on the engine-
>>> I
>>> am more interested at getting somewhere near 200 hp at 20k feet- and get
>>> some good top end like  factory turbo model.  There is a guy who is
>>> getting
>>> about 1600 dyno wheel hp for drag racing in Australia out of a more 
>>> highly
>>> modified turbocharged SVX- but I would guess that that engine won't last
>>> too
>>> long at cruise power settings.  :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
>>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:22 AM
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>>
>>> Is that the 300 HP motor?
>>> Matt
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Alex Balic
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:24 PM
>>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>> Got a video up on youtube if anyone is interested- second run on my SVX
>>> motor- Milt Merskey on the camera with commentary- have an intermittent
>>> ignition coil on #5-  it comes alive at 1:48 and you can tell the
>>> difference- smoke at the end is from newly installed exhaust wrap ect....
>>> still have a ton of wiring to do, but this kind of stuff keeps you
>>> going...
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU
>>> <http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU>
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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-- 

-
     The most effectual engines for [pacifying a nation] are the public 
papers... [A despotic] government always [keeps] a kind of standing army 
of newswriters who, without any regard to truth or to what should be 
like truth, [invent] and put into the papers whatever might serve the 
ministers.

     Thomas Jefferson to G. K. van Hogendorp
     Oct. 13, 1785. (*) ME 5:181, Papers 8:632