REFLECTOR: Crossflow
Brian Michalk
michalk at awpi.com
Tue Dec 4 17:38:29 CST 2007
Sorta.
I have run the engine on the backup injectors. It ran surprisingly
well. I can't wait to see the performance numbers in the air compared
to EFI.
The backup system uses a barrel valve that regulates flow to "mister
nozzles". I was never happy with the ruggedness of the system. My last
version is very fueltight, and allows zero fuel flow when in the off
position thanks to a Teflon seal. The controller board has worked in
the past, but code bloat means that it won't all fit into the 8K of
memory. I upgraded to a bigger 16K chip which I'm working the bugs out
of now.
Family and party events keep getting in the way of spending time on it.
The other problem is that I can't seem to get motivated like I should.
It's a lot easier to sit down and watch a movie than it is to slog into
the garage and step through code on the embedded system while standing
on cold concrete.
Andy Millin wrote:
> Hey Brian,
>
> Happy to add you to the list. :)
>
> Heck Brian, you have done some wonderful engineering on you ship.
>
> Didn't you also develop your own EFIS?
>
> You da' man!
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Brian Michalk
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:08 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Crossflow
>
> Andy,
>
> Add me to that list ... sort of.
> I went the opposite way. I took my Franklin and added EFI/EI. I
> turbocharged it and welded up my own stainless steel exhaust.
>
> Lot's of hours spent there. Hard to believe I had my first engine start
> more than a year ago. That damn EFI backup system as easy as it seems
> (and it is very simple), is an illusion. It takes a lot of engineering
> to end up with a robust product. Any mechanically simple system takes
> many hours to get right. Rube Goldbergs are easy. Simple is difficult.
>
> I'm hoping for a final engine run this month before heading to the airport.
>
> Andy Millin wrote:
>
>> Len,
>>
>> Caveat, caveat, ad infinitim...
>>
>> Velocity builder Doug Hayes had posted information on his Crossflow
>> experience on the reflector back on 8/26/2004.
>>
>> His story is long, sad, and very frustrating.
>>
>> I wrote to him off the reflector a couple times. I wanted to check in. I
>> was hoping for a good outcome.
>>
>> I have the complete chain of all email exchanged, if anyone is interested
>> contact me off the reflector. Too long to post here.
>>
>> Last contact was 9 months ago and he still was not ready for engine start
>> let alone flight.
>>
>> What broke my heart most was the experience had nearly, if not completely,
>> drained Doug of all desire to finish the project; and he has a completed
>> airframe.
>>
>> I am like Ronnie, I like all types of engines. I like all configurations
>>
> of
>
>> Velocity. I want a ride in everyone's plane. (I know, shameless)
>>
>> I can't wait to get my ride in Alex's plane. Yeah, he can go first... but
>> ... :)
>>
>> When it comes to aircraft engines, you have to acknowledge you are in a
>>
> new
>
>> realm. The money involved adds new perspective. Engines can have market
>> values $20K, $30K, $40K, and well above. I just checked Crossflow's
>>
> site.
>
>> Their low end starts at $26K and goes up to $43.5. It's up to you to
>>
> decide
>
>> if that's a lot of money.
>>
>> I'm sorry to say you don't have to go far to find someone that has been
>> taken for tens of thousands of dollars. Left to wait for years hoping to
>> have an engine delivered.
>>
>> When it comes to new engine packages, they are very appealing. All the
>> builders have a good story and will tell you why they are solid. The
>>
> desire
>
>> to believe the story can be great (you'll wanna). They will be likable
>> people.
>>
>> I'm not trying to say everyone is a crook. I guess I'm saying do your
>> research. Take your time. Check references. A bad decision on a major
>> purchase can suck the life and joy out of your project.
>>
>> Len, I'm feeling a bit pedantic here. But, when you've been around a
>> while, you pick up a few things...
>>
>> FWIW:
>>
>> I don't know of anyone flying with a Crossflow in a Velocity
>>
>> Bob Bols (XL/RG) has purchased an engine from Jason Day at Vesta.
>> He had not received the engine as of OSH 2007. Love to have an update.
>>
>> I don't know if anyone has purchased the French rotary engine that
>> was on display at OSH...
>>
>> I don't know if anyone has purchased an Eggenfeller for a Velocity.
>>
>> I know builders that put money down on the Deltahawk. The good
>> people, and they are good people, at Deltahawk are still working on it.
>> Over the years I have heard them speak several times. Their work is
>> impressive. Unfortunately each presentation put them in final testing,
>> final mods before production, and they will be shipping in six months.
>>
> The
>
>> first time I heard this was in 2003. The last time was at Velocity
>> University.
>>
>> Others have built the engines themselves: Alex, Al Gietzen, Kurt
>> Winker, Chris Barber, Dave Bertram, Bill Mulrooney. These gentlemen have
>> flown, or are very close to it.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of len.baxter at gm.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:41 PM
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>>
>> Ron.... thanks for the caution !!! Is anyone flying a Crossflow
>> sucessfully??
>>
>>
>> Len Baxter
>> XLRG-5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Ron Brown" <romott at roadrunner.com>
>> Sent by: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>
>> 12/04/2007 02:22 PM
>> Please respond to
>> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>
>> To
>> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc
>>
> Subject
>
>> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I had written the following to Alex but since Matt and Len have mentioned
>> the Crossflow engines, let me share what I know about Crossflow and to
>> caution folks to be VERY CAREFUL before you spend any money. There is
>> another Velocity builder out there that ordered and paid for an engine and
>> had not received it as of a year or so ago. I hadn't planned on sharing
>>
> the
>
>> note to Alex with the Reflector crowd, but since at least two of you are
>> considering the engine - I didn't want to see anyone else taken to the
>> cleaners (Dick paid as much for his FWF Crossflow, 4 cylinder turbo engine
>> as I did my Don George Lycasarus IO360.) I have 360 hours of reliable
>> flying - Dick is still trying to get his airplane back home.
>>
>> Alex,
>> I wanted to update you on my friend, Dick Healy and his 4 cylinder, turbo
>> charged Crossflow Subaru mounted on his Lancair 320 in 2004.
>>
>> He has spent much of the summer in Canada after trailering his airplane to
>> Crossflow to get the engine running right. (He got his engine after many
>> delays in 2004). They are on the third engine now (at least one engine
>>
> was
>
>> fried from running too lean), added an intercooler due to high combustion
>> air temps. The third engine has flown once and with winter setting in, it
>> may be next year before they can confirm the flyability of the current
>> setup.
>>
>> Just wanted you to know that Jorge may not know all he needs to know about
>> the ECU and engine operations. On one of his trips down to NC to tune the
>> ECU, he told Dick he did not think it was advisable to provide a cool air
>> source to the turbo inlet. You and I both know, the cooler the air, the
>> better the engine performance will be (well short of carb icing - but
>>
> these
>
>> engines ARE fuel injected). I couldn't believe Jorge had advised against
>> the cool air scoop. Now, he understands that not only does it need a cool
>> air source, it also needs to have an intercooler to keep combustion air
>>
> down
>
>> to a reasonable temperature.
>>
>> Good luck with your engine - I feel better about what you are doing versus
>> buying a firewall forward (rearward) from Crossflow. They make a pretty
>> engine, but I question his engine knowledge. Last I heard, he has sold 60
>> engines. None are in reliable flying conditions yet! Dick says there is
>> one other flying engine at Crossflow, but it hasn't left the area yet.
>>
>> Reflector Gang: I love auto engines as much as anyone. I have been a hot
>> rodder for years, built several engines including a Chevy small block in a
>> 53 Studebaker coupe. But, if you want reliable power for your Velocity,
>>
> an
>
>> engine that will keep you flying for a long time on a single rebuild, and
>> can actually get pretty good fuel burns with a matched set of injector
>> nozzles and good EGT/CHT monitoring (I get 8 GPH at 2600 rpm and 155 knots
>> in my 173 Elite RG. In a standard wing, you can add at least 15 knots to
>> the cruise speed. Oh and I hung my engine and installed all of the FW
>> backwards in a little over a month. Everything works as installed
>> originally. It starts easily, runs cool, and is very dependable.
>>
>> Ronnie Brown
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: len.baxter at gm.com <mailto:len.baxter at gm.com>
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>>
>> Go for it Matt !!.....there are a lot of us who have ( or will have )
>> abandoned the 70+ yr old technology represented by Cont and Lyc. I am
>> leaning towards a GM LS2, or a 3 rotor rotary, or the crossflow turbo.....
>> hard to choose.
>>
>>
>> Len Baxter
>> XLRG-5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Matt Bucko" <mbuc310 at cox.net <mailto:mbuc310 at cox.net> > Sent by:
>> reflector-bounces at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>
>>
>> 12/04/2007 12:27 PM
>>
>> Please respond to
>> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> To
>> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc
>>
> Subject
>
>> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you. Most impressed here. I have been toying with selling my IO540
>> and going with something else. Deltahawk still has to deliver... I have
>>
> seen
>
>> the Crossflow site before. Nice build.
>> Matt
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>> Behalf Of Alex Balic
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:27 AM
>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>> Hi Matt-
>> I got a used engine with 48k miles on it- nice thing about SVX owners is
>> that they take really good care of their cars- when I opened it up, oil
>>
> was
>
>> like new, still had the burnish marks on the cylinder sleeves. I ported
>> and polished the heads, replaced the stock high compression pistons with
>>
> low
>
>> compression ones for use with the turbocharger- removed the stock intake
>> manifold, welded up a lower profile, and much lighter one, re-ground the
>> cams slightly, and built the exhaust up one bend at a time to ensure that
>>
> it
>
>> would fit in the velocity cowling. Also had to re-locate the alternator
>>
> for
>
>> the same reason. I must add that I got a lot of help from Jorge Alonzo up
>>
> at
>
>> Crossflow Aero in Canada- he made the engine mount -which is a work of
>>
> art-
>
>> and I am using his ECU setup / wiring harness as well as their PSRU.
>> Intercooler is from a T-210 that I found on EBay for $43 including the
>> pressure relief valve, which I have had reset to 5psi, and I have a Teil
>> external waste gate to control the turbo. Turbo was built by Majestic
>> Turbochargers here in Dallas . Overall, it has been a long road to get to
>> this point- I suppose could have purchased a firewall back setup from
>> Crosslfow but wouldn't have learned nearly as much, and they are pretty
>> proud of their 300+ hp units up there-
>> Engine runs ridiculously smooth though- I think I am getting more
>>
> vibration
>
>> from the fuel pumps...
>> PS- other nice thing- I can get an factory new assembled short block from
>> Subaru for $3600- might just do that at overhaul time...
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:54 AM
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>> Who built it?
>> Matt
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>> Behalf Of Alex Balic
>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:48 PM
>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>> Estimated at 325hp at 4 lbs of boost- I can set the boost up to 16 psi and
>> get maybe 500 hp- but I don't want to put that much stress on the engine-
>>
> I
>
>> am more interested at getting somewhere near 200 hp at 20k feet- and get
>> some good top end like factory turbo model. There is a guy who is
>>
> getting
>
>> about 1600 dyno wheel hp for drag racing in Australia out of a more highly
>> modified turbocharged SVX- but I would guess that that engine won't last
>>
> too
>
>> long at cruise power settings. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
>> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:22 AM
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>>
>> Is that the 300 HP motor?
>> Matt
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>> Behalf Of Alex Balic
>> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:24 PM
>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>> Got a video up on youtube if anyone is interested- second run on my SVX
>> motor- Milt Merskey on the camera with commentary- have an intermittent
>> ignition coil on #5- it comes alive at 1:48 and you can tell the
>> difference- smoke at the end is from newly installed exhaust wrap ect....
>> still have a ton of wiring to do, but this kind of stuff keeps you
>>
> going...
>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU
>> <http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU>
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>>
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>
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