REFLECTOR: Turbo heat shielding and fires

Fri Apr 13 11:53:02 CDT 2007

Chuck,

Where did you get your fire-retardant paint?  Do they need to be sprayed on?  Or can they brushed on?

It seems like I'll need to buid myself a little "fire alarm" just in case...

Thanks.

Hiroo

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Harbert
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:25 AM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR: Turbo heat shielding and fires

Like Sid, I also had an engine fire (actually 2) that lead to emergency landings. In both cases, I had an engine oil cooler that failed. The cooler located below the engine (turbo Mazda 20B) sprayed oil on the hot exhaust.
Fortunately, they both were at takeoff and the controller told me I had smoke coming out the back. On the first, the engine continued to run, so I landed after a quick course reversal (9K' runway), but on the second, the engine quit just after gear up and I was on  crosswind. I was able to turn back to the field, but not get my main gear down, so I did a partial belly landing (it takes awhile to get that main gear down and you sink rate triples). In both cases, the fire went out when the engine quit (oil pump quit).

What prevented the plane from burning up was the fire retardant paint I put on the inside of the cowl and in the wing root. I now have a temp alarm near the exit of the cowl. I have considered also installing a small video camera that looks into the engine compartment or at the cowl exit (preferred). I understand they're cheap and light, but I don't know how they would stand up to the vibration. I also bot some small mirrors and considered putting one in the inboard side of the winglet, but it has to be big to see it from the cockpit.

I also spent some time dealing with turbo heat which I think you really can't simulate under ground run conditions. The turbo and exhaust pipe were ceramic coated, but I also had to construct a stainless steel shroud (1/2 inch away from turbo) cover to keep from blistering the fire retardant paint on the cowls (about 250F, I think). Radiant (line of sight) heat from even a normalized engine (atmospheric) can really heat up the surrounding materials. I also put a flat SS shield on the inboard side of the turbo to prevent radiant heat transfer to the compressor side. And finally, I directed outside air onto the turbo and exhaust pipe, so that it would exit the cowl quickly. During idle and taxi, and after landing, the cowls got very warm (too hot to keep your hand on), so I had to put in top vents.
Turbos are designed for up to 2,000F temps which is red/white hot, so you better make sure you have this kind of temp under control.

I'm going to try to use the insulated turbo shields that strap onto the turbo on my current installation which I think should also work. You can buy these for almost any turbo at the speed shops or mfgs.

Someone told me a couple years ago of a Velocity that was flying up the west coast that had a fire that burned quite awhile unknown to the pilot. I believe he said the crashed when the spar/wing root failed. I guess since I fireproofed the firewall, cowls, and wing roots, I'd leave the engine running until I was sure of a safe landing. Another story was of a hot oil leak that sent fumes into the cabin thru the floor oil/wire duct that cause a fatal crash. I think if you seal the openings from the engine compartment, you shouldn't get smoke/fire into the cabin which is more important than the fire.

Hope you all learned something from my bad experiences.

Chuck H
----- Original Message -----
From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 7:34 AM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 35, Issue 43

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re:  Panel Changes (Craig and Denise Woolston)
>   2.  oil temp problems solved (Tom)
>   3. Re:  oil temp problems solved (Douglas Holub)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:51:12 -0800
> From: "Craig and Denise Woolston" <cdwoolston at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Panel Changes
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <200704131255.l3DCtJWF006216 at dax.awpi.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Not sure what Scott B reason is but mine would be #2 allows you to
> quickly tell what attitude instrument is no good.  With only two, you
> have to guess, with three it's a democracy.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
> On Behalf Of Scott Derrick
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:56 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Panel Changes
>
>
>
> Scott,
>
> thanks for your input.  Can you say why #2 over #1?
>
> A wrinkle in the equation is that the ILS CDI can not be used by the GPS.
> They don't speak the same language.  I really hate this widespread use
> of proprietary buss's  in the aviation world.  If desktop computers
> did that, they would still cost $10,000,  which come to think about
> it, thats what aviation computers cost!
>
> thanks, Scott D
>
> Scott Baker wrote:
>
> For IFR ops, I think I would vote for Possibility #2.
> Put the CDI on an A:B switch for Nav 1<>Nav #2 (unless the Dynon EFIS
> can display one of the Nav's).
> SB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Derrick"  <mailto:scott at tnstaafl.net>
> <scott at tnstaafl.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:17 PM
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Panel Changes
>
>
>
>
> I'm going to be installing two Dynon instruments. One an EFIS an the
> other an EMS(Engine Monitor System).  I have 8 3.125 instruments in an
> extended
> 6 pack configuration.  The standard 6 pack plus two CDI's to the
> right, one for the GPS the other for the VOR/ILS.  Two rows of 4 instruments.
> Because of the size of the Dynon units the easiest place to install
> them is where the CDI units are.
>
> So I now have 8 holes and 10 instruments.  2 have to go. I'm looking
> for input as to which two instruments to ditch and why you think so...
>
> First some info on the existing instruments.
> 1.) The AI & DG are integral to my auto pilot so for now they must stay.
> This also gives me redundancy for gyro instruments, one set vacuum the
> other electric.
> 2.) The GPS course will be displayed on the Dynon when the EFIS or EMS
> is in HSI mode, but they don't have a course indicator when it is in
> AI mode.. Not sure when they expect to get that added.
> 3.) The VOR/ILS can not be displayed on the Dynon, incompatible interface.
>
> I have attached an image of what the panel looks like and possible
> layouts I have come up with. I welcome any comments..
>
> thanks, Scott
>
>
> --
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> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:34:56 -0400
> From: Tom <tomcat05 at comcast.net>
> Subject: REFLECTOR: oil temp problems solved
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Message-ID: <461F8700.4060005 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> After several attempts at making the one oil cooler scenario work, I
> gave up and added a 2nd cooler-steady temps dropped from 240 to 195. I
> placed the 2nd cooler on the upper engine baffle (strongly braced). I
> made a 3" tee (45 degree) out of aluminum tubing and share the ram air
> for the induction with the duct for the new cooler. Flew plane this
> morning and the manifold pressure appears to be the same, guess the
> ram air was a bit of overkill in stock configuration. I do believe
> that the vernatherm is the main issue in causing higher temps. The
> extra plumbing intrinsic to the Velocity design increases oil pressure
> and at cruise speed keeps the vernatherm partially open. When you pull
> power and the pressure decreases you can see an immediate drop in
> temps. Although I did install a new vernatherm I've saved the old one
> to modify for testing. While I was at it, I sealed up the baffling and
> the CHTs dropped from 375 to 320. Life is good! Now I can start
> playing with the avionics (after Sun-N-Fun).
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:34:41 -0500
> From: "Douglas Holub" <doug.holub at tx.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: oil temp problems solved
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <00c801c77dd8$df4a1290$6a01a8c0 at Workshop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I would love to see a picture of your ram air scoop, so that I don't
> make mine too big, also.
>
> Doug Holub
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom" <tomcat05 at comcast.net>
> To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:34 AM
> Subject: REFLECTOR: oil temp problems solved
>
>
>> After several attempts at making the one oil cooler scenario work, I
>> gave up and added a 2nd cooler-steady temps dropped from 240 to 195.
>> I placed the 2nd cooler on the upper engine baffle (strongly braced).
>> I made a 3" tee (45 degree) out of aluminum tubing and share the ram
>> air for the induction with the duct for the new cooler. Flew plane
>> this morning and the manifold pressure appears to be the same, guess
>> the ram air was a bit of overkill in stock configuration. I do
>> believe that the vernatherm is the main issue in causing higher
>> temps. The extra plumbing intrinsic to the Velocity design increases
>> oil pressure and at cruise speed keeps the vernatherm partially open.
>> When you pull power and the pressure decreases you can see an
>> immediate drop in temps. Although I did install a new vernatherm I've
>> saved the old one to modify for testing. While I was at it, I sealed
>> up the baffling and the CHTs dropped from 375 to 320. Life is good!
>> Now I can start playing with the avionics (after Sun-N-Fun).
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives:
>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
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