REFLECTOR: Wire (typo?):pissing contest
Dave Dent
davedent at comcast.net
Sat Feb 12 11:20:25 CST 2005
Larry this could get to be fun. I must tell you that the dealers that sell
batteries may sell a aircraft battery for $1000 but believe me they don't
pay that much. I could build a prismatic Li-ion battery for right around
$.85 in materials and just under $1.00 for labor and overhead. They went
out the door for just about $2.00 and that was with profit. This was all
automated. By the time they got to the market they were sometimes over
$65.00. So demands govern the market cost. When the bottom fell out of the
cell phone business I was selling my left over stock at $1.00 and I was glad
to get it. That same left over stock is now selling for over $3.00
wholesale. So Concord could sell the 25lb 100Ahr batter for right around
$300.00 and believe me the aircraft industry would want them. So would the
Euro rail ways would want them also. But like I said before greed and
bureaucracy get in the way.
One thing that people neglect to see is when you shove 900 Ahr out of any
battery is the heat dissipation. We worked on the electric car battery
issue back in the late nineties and the people working on the cooling and
packaging backed out because of the cost issues, not the technology.
Because they had a great concept for high currant draw. The main issue was
money. The auto industry wanted a 48V 400 Ahr battery to cost $300 per unit
to them. They would sell it for $3000 as a replacement. So do you get my
point? When it cost no more then $2,500 to build a top of the line Ford
then why not get $3,000 for battery in the after market. I pay $125 for my
35Ahr 27lb battery every three years. That is $416 in ten years, plus tax,
plus shipping, plus hasmat. I think I would pay $500 for a light weight
Li-ion 100Ahr and change only once in ten years. With the correct
marketing, I think this would be a not brainer. And we wonder why China is
taking over.
The life span of a good Li-ion battery is right around 10 years. A lead
acid is three years. Also a the cycles on a Li-ion is 400 cycles and still
have 85% of life. A lead acid is three complete cycles for zero charge to
fully charged. I have worked with the cell phone people related to repeater
stations for UPS. and they use lead acid. They put four large 25Ah
batteries on a pallet and change them out every five months and the cost is
astronomical. The hazmat is horrible and danger is ever present. The
Li-Ion can sit on a small shelf and last ten years and very little
environmental issues. It's a hard nut to crack. I'm sure in the very near
future you will see this kind of technology coming out of China or Korea for
cars and aircraft. Once again we missed the boat because we were at the
airport.
I hope this put a little laughter in your life today..
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Wire (typo?):pissing contest
> Dave,
>
> Rene' mentioned he was using a RCG battery as in lead acid. Li-Ion
> batteries have a much better power to weight ratio than lead acid
> batteries. However, a 900 Amp Hr Li-Ion battery by your spec would still
> weigh 225 lbs. What's your point? Concord probably rejected the deal
> because they thought they might have trouble selling a $1,000 + aircraft
> battery. The price is just a wild guess but I do know that the tiny
> (Li-Ion) battery in my cell phone sells for $45.
>
> Larry Coen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Dent" <davedent at comcast.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Wire (typo?)
>
>
>> As far as batteries go I had a company once (Spectrapower) that produced
>> batteries that put out 100 Ahr at 16 volts that weighed in at 25lbs. I
>> showed them to Concord Battery and they said they were not interested.
>> They were Li-Ion type.
>> I then produce a battery for the solar powered NASA plane that would put
>> out 350 whkg. They turned this down because they had put to much money
>> into the Hydrogen fuel cells. Big mistake, the plane crashed because of
>> over-weight and center of C/G for a span loaded aircraft.
>> This technology still exist but not being produced in the U.S. I built
>> up some as standby batteries for my EFIS that are 12V at 5Ah and just
>> under one pound. These are very special and will not be built again
>> because we sold the whole thing to a company outside the states. That
>> happens a lot in this country. A lot of great technology has been lost
>> because of bureaucracy and greed by those that are already making good
>> money off old technology.
>> As Burt Rutan once told me, "we can do it but politics won't let us." At
>> that time we were talking about get our UAV's to 100kft and flying for
>> days on end.
>> Dave
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Wire (typo?)
>>
>>
>>> Rene',
>>>
>>> A 900 Amp Hr battery would be huge and weigh about 580 lbs. 9 Amp Hr
>>> would be small.
>>>
>>> Larry Coen
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Rene Dugas" <dugasd at bellsouth.net>
>>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:11 PM
>>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Wire
>>>
>>>
>>>>I used #2 welding cable both ways and #4 to panel recommended by Bob
>>>> Nuckols in the Aeroelectric Connection. Worked well so far for three
>>>> years. Very flexible and easy to route. 260 hp Lyc with Lamar Starter
>>>> and 900 AMphr GRecom battery very small in nose.
>>>> Rene'
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of velocityxlfg
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:07 AM
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Wire
>>>>
>>>> What gauge wire would you run from the battery in the front of the
>>>> plane
>>>> to
>>>> the starter in the back? I was thinking of 2 gauge wire any thoughts ?
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Andy Millin" <amillin at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:17 AM
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Accident
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know this owner or the aircraft. Not a lot of information in
>>>> the
>>>>> report. Sounds like there weren't any injuries but significant damage
>>>> to
>>>>> the aircraft.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/M_0124_N.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=121hs
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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