REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
Scott Derrick
scott at tnstaafl.net
Sun Oct 31 07:32:55 CST 2004
what records?
details??
Was the guy smoking and fueling?
Scott
At 09:53 AM 10/30/2004, Ronnie Brown wrote:
>My records show that this newly built Velocity burned to the ground during
>refueling.
>
>Aircraft Description
>Serial Number 304 Type Registration Individual
>Manufacturer Name BALL M A Certificate Issue Date 11/22/1996
>Model VELOCITY 173 RGE Mode S Code 52031607
>Year Manufacturer None Cancel Date 08/08/2001
>Reason for Cancellation Destroyed Exported To
>
>
>----------
>
>
>Aircraft Registration prior to Deregistration
>
>Name BALL MELVIN A
>Street 14860 ROLLING HILLS DR
>City MONTROSE State COLORADO Zip
>Code 81401-8031
>County MONTROSE
>Country UNITED STATES
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:canarder at frontiernet.net>Jim Sower
>To: <mailto:alex157 at direcway.com>alex157 at direcway.com ;
><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:01 AM
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
>
>Didn't hear about that one. Wonder what the particulars are.
>
>Cessna has rubber bladder tanks IIRC. RV (and everyone else) is all
>metal. I'm questioning the assertion that grounding my chain (which goes
>over the metal fuel orifice into the tank bottom) won't work because
>there's no adequate path to ground (while implying that the screen WILL
>provide an adequate path). My setup has at least as good a path than any
>spam can, since they don't even have a chain and make no attempt to ground
>the fuel streaming out of the nozzle (which is said to be the source of
>static charge). This screen seems more effective than my chain, but my
>chain is more effective than 99% of GA aircraft (dramatically more
>effective than Cessnas with bladders) and is dirt simple, practically
>free, and 90% installed before you even start thinking about static discharge.
>
>
>Alex Balic wrote:
>>Hey Jim-
>>
>>As I recall, several/a few years ago, a Velocity was lost due to a
>>refueling fire- can't remember who it was, but it generated a lot of
>>interest on the reflector at the time-
>>As far as a Cessna, or an RV having problems, I would guess that they
>>generally do not since you can ground(equalize) the entire airframe very
>>easily to the fuel truck through the ground cable, as long as you attach
>>it to somewhere on the airframe since the airframe itself is conductive
>>all of the way to the fuel cap rings. The problem that we, lancair,
>>Glassair ect have is that it is difficult to ground the refueling point
>>through other areas of the aircraft.
>>
>>Alex
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jim Sower
>>Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:12 PM
>>To: <mailto:alex157 at direcway.com>alex157 at direcway.com; Velocity Aircraft
>>Owners and Builders list
>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
>>
>><...not any way for the charge to pass to the chain ...>
>>So how does it get go ground on a Cessna or RV?
>>
>>BTW, in the interest of perspective or context, does anyone on this list
>>have first-hand (saw it happen) or second-hand (personally knows a
>>reliable first-hand witness) of a refueling fire caused by static charge
>>on ANY airplane? Or automobile, for that matter?
>>
>>Inquiring minds need to know ... Jim S.
>>
>>Alex Balic wrote:
>>>
>>>the fuel itself is non conductive, it is the charge that is stripped from
>>>
>>>the surface of the flowing fuel that builds up on the surface of the skin
>>>
>>>and metal parts that causes the problem, the metal chain in the fuel trick
>>>
>>>is not effective, since there is not any way for the charge to pass to the
>>>
>>>chain.
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>
>>>From: <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>>
>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>>
>>>Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:56 PM
>>>
>>>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>
>>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>If an airplane has capacitive fuel sensors, Doesn't that provide a ground
>>>
>>>path from the fuel in the tank to the exhaust pipe?
>>>
>>>
>>>Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:16 PM 10/24/2004, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>We are talking retrofit here. My plane has been flying (and refueling) for
>>>>
>>>>4 years and I only clip the grounding cable to the nozzle for lack of a
>>>>
>>>>better grounding point. However I like the screen bit. Would it work if
>>>>
>>>>one was to shape a cylindrical screen that could be inserted in the fuel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>cap
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>opening at every fuel stop. This cylinder could reach the bottom of the
>>>>
>>>>tank and have a flange that would barely touch the top strake around the
>>>>
>>>>fuel tank opening. The fuel nozzle would then flow through that screen.
>>>>
>>>>The only draw back would be to carry (and store ) this contraption to have
>>>>
>>>>it on hand at every refueling stop.
>>>>
>>>>Gilles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>>From: <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>>[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>>>
>>>>Behalf Of Jim Agnew
>>>>
>>>>Sent: 24 octobre 2004 14:43
>>>>
>>>>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>>
>>>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The concept of a fire screen has been proven for many years in miners
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>lamps.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>A
>>>>
>>>>fine mesh screen tube surrounding the filler inlet that goes to the bottom
>>>>
>>>>of
>>>>
>>>>the tank will prevent the passage of the flame front into the fuel tank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>even
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>if
>>>>
>>>>the fuel vapors inside the fire screen tube ignite. This screen does not
>>>>
>>>>depend on grounding.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--- Chuck Jensen <mailto:cjensen at dts9000.com><cjensen at dts9000.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mmmmmm. Alex's idea of first checking for continuity between the fueler
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>ring
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>and the exhaust pipe is a good one. If there is continuity, then
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>executing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Al's idea of a drooping chain from the cap down into the fuel seems to
>>>>>
>>>>>assure there is a fuel-chain-exhaust-refueling stating ground (all this
>>>>>
>>>>>assuming there is fuel ring to exhaust continuity). Richard's method,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>from
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>a Very Large Aerospace Company, appears to do the same thing, just
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>better
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>and with a higher degree of certainty. Of course, if there's not
>>>>>
>>>>>continuity, then its back to the drawing board. It's somewhat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>comforting
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>know that the incidence of Velos going off like Roman Candles is rare,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>but
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd hate to be the first data point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Chuck
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>>From: <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>>>[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>>>>
>>>>>Behalf Of Richard Riley
>>>>>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 11:44 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>>>
>>>>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>We went around and round on this topic on one of the canard mailing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>lists
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>few months ago. Following all the suggestions, I talked with a fuel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>designer at the Very Large Aerospace Company where I work and came up
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>with
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>the following for my plane...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The fuel cap ring is attached to a coarse brass screen, shaped in a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>tube,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>that goes from the fuel cap ring to bottom of the tank. It is attached
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>by
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>a brass ball chain to the fuel drain, and to a brass bolt in the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>outboard
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>fuel bulkhead. That bolt is then attached by a wire to the engine, and
>>>>>
>>>>>therefor to the exhaust pipes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Most of the static charge in refueling is created by the fuel falling
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>from
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>the nozzle to the surface of fuel in the tank. The brass screens strips
>>>>>
>>>>>that away. No matter what the level of the fuel, it's pierced by the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>chain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>going to the fuel drain. And then the whole thing is electrically
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>bonded
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>to the engine block. If the fuel truck attaches the ground strap to the
>>>>>
>>>>>exhaust pipe, all the potential is equalized.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 09:21 AM 10/24/04, Al Gietzen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I guess there are different views on this, but I see little relation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>(as
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>in maybe "none") between grounding the exhaust pipe, and refueling
>>>>>>
>>>>>>safety. The static charge buildup is between the nozzle and the fuel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(surface); or the nozzle and the potential existing static charge on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>surface of the strake due air friction. So have a metal chain or cable
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >from the cap ring hanging into the fuel, and keep the nozzle against
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>ring; and, if you have just landed, wipe the surface of the strake with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>damp cloth before contacting the nozzle to the ring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyway, that's my take; but I've been wrong once before in my lifeJ.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Al
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Subject: REFLECTOR: Grounding Point
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I didn't find a direct reference in the archives, so I was still
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>wondering
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>if the exhaust pipes is an adequate grounding point when refueling? I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>always assumed it was but I'd hate this to be a FireBall Falacy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Chuck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>__
>
>
>----------
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