REFLECTOR: Advance Turbine Power ne Innodyn

Sun Oct 10 08:19:57 CDT 2004

Bruch, some kind of guru on the RV aircraft site seems to think the some
laws of physics and thermodynamics need to be repealed/altered for Innodyn
to make their numbers.  Puts numbers to gut-feel.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server at matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server at matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stein Bruch
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 12:22 AM
To: rv-list at matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: turbine power

--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein at steinair.com>

Well, let's run the numbers (BSFC that is).

If the Turbine is in fact burning:

16 @ 250hp, that = (16x6.8)/250 = BSFC of .432
13 @ 200hp, that = (13x6.8)/200 = BSFC of .442

That is HIGHLY suspect, because the well known published BSFC numbers for
the old Solar T-62 are between 1.0-1.2 which would equate to something more
like (hp/6.8) with a BSFC of 1:

250hp, 37gph
200hp, 29gph
180hp, 26gph
150hp, 22gph
100hp, 14gph

Now, taking the scenario below that Charlie used, that 100hp would equate to
14gph.....that's what my IO-360 burns ar full tilt at takeoff, near sea
level and with a BSFC of .5, I'm probably developing around my rated 180hp,
a typical published BSFC for most 4 stroke gas engines.  Too keep everyone
from getting bored with numbers, I did some basic & rudimetnary guestimation
(based on my 180hpRV6 cruise #'s), and believe it only takes aroun 80-85hp
to do 140.  Using that number, the turbine is now burning 14gph at 85hp,
brings us to a BSFC of 1.1, a much more realistic probability  for that
engine.  If you follow that number up, you get a LOT of fuel burn at higher
hp.

The BSFC calculations have been around since before my time, and are fairly
well known.  Typcial BSFC's are:

Small Turboshafts, 1.0-1.2 +/-
Large Turboshafts, .65-.7 +/-
2 Stroke Pistons, .58-.64 +/-
Wankels (Rotaries), .47-.50 +/-
4 Sroke GAS Piston, .4-.5 +/-
4 Stroke DIESEL, .3-.4 +/-

That being said, there have been some very creative folks with engines on
airplanes and have gotten BSFC's down in the low .3's.

I guess each person needs to make their own choice, but I'll stand by the
historically published numbers until I see proof of something else.  That
means flying one of their turbine powered RV's next to a comparable powered
Lyc, and measuring fuel burned.  I hope they do well, and truly would like
to see a bunch of Jet powered RV's out there, but I'm VERY skeptical. If in
fact that engine is only burning 13gph @ 200hp, I'll be standing in line to
buy one.

Might be a SUPER engine, or might be a pig with lipstick.....only time will
tell.

Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis.

P.S., Somebody, somewhere has GOT to know by now what those engines are
drinking.  The fact that it hasn't been actively and acurately published and
verified by the mfgr is another sign.....

Do not archive this mess I created!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server at matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server at matronics.com]On Behalf Of Charlie England
To: rv-list at matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: turbine power

--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland at bellsouth.net>

Wayne R. Couture wrote:

>--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture"
<commando at cox-internet.com>
>
>OK Folks,
>
>    There's a new article in "Kitbuilt Airplanes" about "Affordable Turbine
power" and there Solar turbine engine.  Again they boast that they are
getting 16 gph at 250 hp and 13 gph at 200 hp using an automotive type fuel
injection system.  Now the last time we talked about this it was said that
the best they could possibly get would be about 1.1 to 1.2 pounds of fuel
per hp with a single stage compressor.  That's over 20 gph!  So what's going
on?  Could they possibly be getting that kind of fuel burn?  It sure would
be COOL to be running a turbine.  Any comments from you engineers out there?
>
>Wayne
>

At SNF this spring I asked the ATP guy what speed & fuel burn they are
now getting in their RV-4 now that they have fixed the exhaust angle. He
said that they were burning 14gph at 140 mph.  I believe that the hp
required to fly a -4 at 140 mph is well under 100.

It would be cool, but...

Charlie

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