REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition

jack davis n767sd at hotmail.com
Mon Jul 19 21:56:26 CDT 2004 

Scott,

I couldn't agree more.  I'm amazed sometimes at the amount of "improvements"
that "need" to be made to the Velocity and usually from most who don't even
have a flyable Velocity.  Although I made changes to the plans to build a
custom aircraft to my tastes, for the most part, I stuck to the basic plans
and had a flyable aircraft in less than 3.5 years of construction.  Many
times I see folks furiously debating "needed" changes on something that I
know from experience doesn't need to be changed or will make little
difference when all is said and done.

I guess it all depends on what your mission profile is for the Velocity.  If
you want a show queen, then there is no limit on the "needed" changes.  If
you plan on using it for serious IFR, then you really only know the
limitations of the design after flying it for a while in actual conditions.

>From my perspective (with about 500 hours on my Velocity now) and from my
mission profile, I wish my Velocity was super or turbocharged, had de-ice,
and I wish I built the XL rather than the Standard.  I definitely know I
need a two-axis autopilot which will reduce the workload tremendously on
those ILS approaches to minimums.  I also know that I'm installing
downlinked weather for the cockpit.

As another example, I guarantee that those folks that say they don't want to
"waste" their money on a constant speed prop are going to wish they didn't
waste money on a fixed pitch prop after they fly it for awhile.  That's just
experience talking . . . How do I know?  Because I was the same person
saying the same thing before my Velocity was flying.  I also had people with
flying Velocities tell me that I needed a CS prop, but I wouldn't believe
them until I ended up spending money on a fixed pitched prop only to
purchase a CS later.  Did I like spending nearly $3K on a fixed pitched prop
plus $10K + on a CS?  No, but that was what was needed.  Unfortunately,
humans rarely heed advise from those with experience.  Those not flying will
just have to learn by doing, even if that means redoing things that could
have been done right the first time.

Jack
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Baker" <sbakr at comcast.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition


>
> Two short stories about the time it takes to build a Velocity ...
> #1 - A close friend and builder of his own Velocity aircraft would often
be
> approached at air shows by aircraft builders who were still working on
their
> projects.  Inevitably these builders would say, "I like (a feature on my
> friend's aircraft), but I'm gonna do (this or that - sometimes for
> one-upmanship, sometimes to make 'improvements') on mine".  My friend
> quickly grew tired of all the talk and would say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah ...
tell
> me after you're done and flying.  Until then, don't bother me."  To him
> there are "dreamers" and "doers" - and he obviously had more patience for
> folks who pushed to fulfill their dreams in the form of a finished
aircraft,
> rather than for folks who were always "dreaming" and never "doing".
> #2 - I was conducting a tour of the Velocity factory and Service Center
> recently to an enthusiastic couple.  While walking between buildings the
> husband asked, "How long does it take to complete work on a Velocity?"  I
> half jokingly said, "That depends on your profession.  If you are a Rough
> Carpenter, you'll be finished within a year.  And if you're an Engineer,
> you'll never finish because you'll spend 8-hours studying and planning for
> each 5-minute job".  You guessed it, he was an engineer.  He laughed and
> said, "You're right ... I guess it's in the blood."
> There is, of course, a happy medium.  Some people enjoy the endless
> possibilities of making changes and "improvements".  These folks should
not
> complain or get down on themselves when the job takes a long time.
> I've seen others who feel that they "must" make custom changes - not
because
> of a demonstrated need - or even because they "want to" - it's as if some
> unknown force is affecting them, compelling them, to make changes.  These
> people become frustrated when the job takes longer than expected.
> I think there is a strong element of wisdom to what Lynn has to say.
> If the goal is to finish and fly - then get out there and do a little
> something every day.  If you are thinking of making changes, realize that
> this adds to the building time - and that quite often, one "little" change
> affects other areas - which then requires changes to accommodate the first
> change (domino effect).  Do yourself a favor and ask, "Is this change
really
> necessary?"
> If so - be true to yourself and proceed.  If not, why not save some (or a
> lot) of time and "pass".  Some of the best examples of Velocity
workmanship
> involve simple, straightforward design features.  It doesn't have to be
> complicated to be "done right".
> If you're a person who enjoys building - perhaps more than flying - then
the
> journey is the destination.  Have fun!  And save a hot tub seat for me!
> Scott B.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 7:01 PM
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition
>
>
> > Greg,
> > I think I was about seven years into my Velocity project when I began to
> > seriously doubt if I would ever finish it. I then made a few decisions
> about
> > my approach to the project which I hoped would put the odds in my favor.
> One
> > of them was to temporarily unsubscribe myself from all aviation internet
> > forums (like this one). Another was to end any more thoughts concerning
> > "improvements" to the design. A third was to call the factory and speak
to
> > Scott or Duane Swing after a "reasonable" period of unsuccessfully
trying
> to
> > figure something out for myself (I defined "reasonable" as anything in
> > excess of two hours.).
> >
> > Only after I had flown it about 100 hours did I begin to think of
> > improvements or added features. But retrofits are often tough to
impliment
> > which is a plus for minimizing downtime and maximizing flying hours.
> >
> > The result? I now have 310 hours flying a really sound airplane in which
I
> > have the highest confidence. To all I say "Forget the interesting
> > competitivness of the Reflector and GET BUILDING!" (It's all in the
> > instruction manual anyway.)
> > Lynn
> > ===========================================
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Greg Poole" <gpoole at zeta.org.au>
> > To: <alex157 at direcway.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:26 AM
> > Subject: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition
> >
> >
> > > Boy what a competitive lot of builders we have ...IVO vs MT vs Catto,
> Mags
> > > vs electronic ignition, Lyco power vs Sub vs GM vs rotary.... seems
> > > everybody needs to back their own MO!  Sure makes it interesting for
us
> > > fence sitters!
> > >
> > > I am also on the BearHawk list (nice place but an entirely different
> > mission
> > > capability/role and a '60's look) and one of the plan builders there
was
> > > really letting loose on glass planes by saying how glad he was to be
> > flying
> > > low and slow and using this as the basis for reasoning that this was
the
> > > reason he would live a much longer and safer life based on the
accident
> > > records of fast glass such as Lancairs etc.  I pointed out the lack of
> > > objectivity in his analysis and reasoning but he could not be swayed.
> > Seems
> > > we glass plane builders are far more ready to fly through cloud and
> storms
> > > trying to outrun the weather to get home first than they that fly STOL
> > > types. Didn't occur to him that with a bit more speed, we probably can
> > give
> > > storm cells a wider berth and get landed and in the hangar than those
> > > bumping along at 120kts.
> > >
> > > To each his own I say....trouble is I love so many mission
capabilities
> > that
> > > I want one of every type!
> > >
> > > ....I'll finish my Velocity first though!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Greg.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Alex Balic" <alex157 at direcway.com>
> > > To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
> list"
> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 2:37 PM
> > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: new electronic ign.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Jim-
> > > > That is exactly why mags are used on racing engines, because at high
> RPM
> > > > they generate a ton of power, more than an electronic unit can...
> > problem
> > > is
> > > > at 2500 rpm, they are pretty weak. I am interested that yours can
> throw
> > a
> > > 1"
> > > > spark - I don't have my formula handy, but at sea level, dry air, I
> > would
> > > > think that it would require several thousand volts- do they use a
> > > capacitor
> > > > in the high altitude units? I though that they were just better
> > insulated
> > > to
> > > > prevent internal arcing at altitude..... I suppose that if there is
> > enough
> > > > spring tension on that impulse coupler that it could simulate
> > momentarily,
> > > > several thousand RPM though........ I have been a grounding source
for
> a
> > > > magneto in the past, it wasn't a fun experience that I want to
repeat,
> > but
> > > > once again, it happened when the coupler tripped, and the speed
could
> > have
> > > > been pretty high....
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> > > > Behalf Of Jim Agnew
> > > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 9:11 PM
> > > > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> > > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: new electronic ign.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Scott,
> > > >
> > > > I have Bendix high altitude mags on my IO-360 and if you
> > > > turn the prop by hand the impulse coupled mag will throw a
> > > > 3/4-1" spark so I doubt if .035" would bother them.
> > > >
> > > > On AA Fuel dragsters the cylinders are filled with an
> > > > almost liquid mixture and they use mags to fire it!! and at
> > > > 10K+ RPM.  The problem with mags is their lack of automatic
> > > > spark advance that gives the electronic ignitions an
> > > > advantage.  They solved this in cars in the 40s so this
> > > > isn't exactly a new development.
> > > >
> > > > BTW it is said that the mags on those dragsters at top RPMs
> > > > produce a spark of 42 AMPS so if you think that mags have a
> > > > weak spark at high rpms you are wrong.  The mag output is
> > > > weak at low rpms and increases as rpms increase.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > --- Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:
> > > > > WHile there may be mags with a good spark, you won't find
> > > > > one on an
> > > > > airplane.   THe spark is absolutly lousy.
> > > > >
> > > > > I gap the plugs on my one slick mag at 18, I gap my plugs
> > > > > on my lightspeed
> > > > > at 35.  Hmmm.. WHy?  Reason is the mags are so weak any
> > > > > larger gap will
> > > > > just arc across the points in the mag instead of the
> > > > > plug.  The lightspeed
> > > > > on the other hand has a very hot spark that can jum the
> > > > > 35 gap with ease.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can run my engine on one mag and loose, minimum 25%
> > > > > power, closer to
> > > > > 35%, I can run on the lightspeed and loose at the most
> > > > > 10%, probably
> > > > > closer to 5%.
> > > > >
> > > > > WHen I do a mag check I drop 75 rpm when running on the
> > > > > mag, I drop less
> > > > > than 10 rpm when shutting the mag off.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mags suck in all respects except one, they don't need any
> > > > > external power.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mags fail all the time and have very short lives. The TBF
> > > > > for a well
> > > > > designd EI is longer than the life of the plane.
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott
> > > > >
> > > > > > Mags do not have a lousy spark. They need two spark
> > > > > plugs per cylinder
> > > > > > because it is too big to combust properly with only one
> > > > > ignition point,
> > > > > > especially a 540. And you need two ignition units
> > > > > because anything can
> > > > > > and will eventually fail. Electronic units fail
> > > > > instantly instead of
> > > > > > running rough like an old style mag.  bg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> > > > > [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Scott Derrick
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:15 AM
> > > > > > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> > > > > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: new electronic ign.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Try and remember: you do not have two mags because
> > > > > they give better
> > > > > >> ignition that way - they give lousy ignition the day
> > > > > you install them,
> > > > > >> and go downhill from there. You have two mags because
> > > > > one of them is
> > > > > >> *certain* to fail. One electronic unit provides better
> > > > > ignition (saves
> > > > > > a
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While I agree that mags are much more failure prone
> > > > > than an EI and that
> > > > > > one of the reasons for two is redundency in case of
> > > > > failure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mags have a lousy spark and you will not get full power
> > > > > with just one.
> > > > > > two are required.  Even with EI's two plugs will
> > > > > provide a more complete
> > > > > > burn and more power than one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scott
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > To change your email address, visit
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> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > James F. Agnew
> > > > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> > > > Tampa, FL
> > > > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > To change your email address, visit
> > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >
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> >
>
>
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