REFLECTOR: Props and runway surfaces (was XLRG on grass)

Dave Dent davedent at comcast.net
Wed Jul 7 11:08:18 CDT 2004 

We talked about the replacement blades.  He said he has had an encounter
already with MT related to this.  They gave him a call and asked him for his
data on the airfoils and manufacturing methods.  He told them where to go.
They didn't want to pay for it.  He told me other things about the MT that I
won't go into but believe me I don't want to fly it any longer then I need
to.
He has done the blade replacement on other CS's but people that had it done
miss used them and put the blame for failure on him. So he would rather not
do that.  He has done major repair work on composite blades from other
though, not saying who.  But the fixed pitch he would really like to keep
up.  So I will let you all know how it goes. It will be a few months before
all the data is in.
He also built me a number of ground adjustable props for the RPV's and
believe me, we put them through the worse test that could ever be done on a
prop.  They survived better then any other tested.  Let alone out performed
all the others.
The only problem with Catto is he works alone, other then his children
helping out in the shop.  So get in line.  He has a large back log.  But he
is worth the wait.
Dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Balic" <alex157 at direcway.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Props and runway surfaces (was XLRG on grass)


> That would be great Dave, Craig sent me a prop to experiment with as well-
> but it is for a 200hp cozy, and I will have just over 300, so it will just
> be a basic starting point- I was planning to use his fixed pitch only for
> taxi and prelim flight testing, but if he can develop one that is close,
> then I might just stick with him for the long term- also, next time you
> talk, please ask him if he would be interested in making replacement
> constant speed blades.....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Dave Dent
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:04 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Props and runway surfaces (was XLRG on grass)
>
>
> I had a long talk with Catto today.  It was most interesting.  When he
gets
> back from France he and I are putting together a test.  Before he gets
back
> I am doing a data collection on the MT with my XL  Then he's going to
build
> me a fixed pitch prop like he did for my the EZ and Cozy.  Of course it
will
> be for a IO-540 260hp engine.  Much like he did for the Jack Morrison
> supercharged E-racer that is pushing a IO-540.  And seeing better then
> 270Kts.  But he will design it around the Velocity XL specs needed, to
come
> within 10% of what the MT can do   I told him it wouldn't be hard.  Also
it
> will be better explosion proof prop, unlike the MT's.  I have seen what a
> Catto prop can take and survive.
>
> I know one thing the construction would be a lot better and  it will cost
> close to $10,000 Less.  Let alone do away with the pitch control issue and
> all that goes with it.
>
> If you want to see one on the IO-540 take a look at the November 2003
Sport
> Aviation Magazine. Page 44.
> I know with our EZ and Cozy climbing out at 1800fpm and cursing at 170Kts
is
> nothing to sneeze at.
> A friend of mine took the Hartzel CS off his RV-4 and put the Catto fixed
on
> and he only lost 100fpm on climb and increased on the top end.  Of course
he
> lost 30lbs plus off the nose as well.
>
> I knew there had to be a better way.   With these new airfoils that he is
> coming up with, for the props on light planes the CS props are a waste,
> unless you live in the very high altitudes.  Believe me, the prop is the
> second most important part on the aircraft.  Without you are nothing but a
> glider, but we shouldn't have to pay the cost of sometimes half the price
of
> a new engine to replace it.  And just to have MT repair, and they don't,
you
> pay half the price of a new one.  Not good.
>
> I will keep you guys posted on the progress when we get into the testing
> with the fixed pitch.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Props and runway surfaces (was XLRG on grass)
>
>
> > Yes, there are no props that won't be damaged, but it seems that the MTs
> are
> > more fragile than average.  That's one reason why I'm still entertaining
> the
> > thought of the pricy Aerocomposites prop.  I'm sure it will safely take
a
> > bit more of the normal wear and tear that the real world inflicts upon
all
> > things than an MT will.  Probably along the lines of a Catto!
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Greg Poole" <gpoole at zeta.org.au>
> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: XLRG on Grass
> >
> >
> > > In my experience there are grass strips (finely manicured, high %
> coverage
> > > and no stones, sand or sticks) and there are grass strips (grass 4"
> long,
> > > 45% coverage, heaps of small to medium stones to vacuum up) so it is
> hard
> > to
> > > draw comparisons when you only have a couple to draw on.
> > >
> > > My experience with Leon Howe's XL (that Dave Dent now has in
California)
> > is
> > > that the damage to the 3rd set of MT prop blades (within TT of 40hrs)
> that
> > > was on the plane (the first was destroyed in a hard landing, the 2nd
set
> > > (you saw in my pictures that Dave Black reposted here) lost 6" off two
> > > blades while we were away on a trip, and the 3rd set had very little
> time
> > > before Mr Dent  bought the aircraft - is that the majority of stone
> damage
> > > occurred on takeoff, landing and runups on tar.  The XL would likely
> take
> > > slightly more revs to get rolling on rough surfaces than a Std
> fuselage -
> > > perhaps that might be another factor involved?
> > >
> > > Unfortunately all sets of prop blades looked beaten after just a half
> > dozen
> > > takeoffs and landings. I think our experience backs John Ward's
> experience
> > > except we might have alot more stones sitting on our asphalt than the
US
> > > has. My memory of Sebastian FL aerodrome is one of a similar surface
as
> we
> > > have where Leon's plane operated out of. I know the factory regularly
> > > refinishes the MT prop blades on its' airplanes but do not recall
seeing
> > the
> > > same amount of dings for time in use that we experienced.
> > >
> > > I'm looking to put deflectors on my mains and nosegear and to use a
more
> > > resilient c/s prop than the MT if I can find one ....methinks MT might
> be
> > > making to much money from repairing blades to bother with putting any
> > effort
> > > into making a stronger, more resilient blade..
> > >
> > > Greg in Sydney.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "johnward" <n120rj at gulftel.com>
> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 3:03 AM
> > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: XLRG on Grass
> > >
> > >
> > > > Tim, I'm the John Ward that Ronnie mentioned and I operate my
Standard
> > > > Velocity RG Elite from a 2,500 foot turf strip.  The engine is an
> > > IO-360C1e6
> > > > with MT prop.  I wouldn't operate from here if I didn't own the
strip
> > > > because it's barely long enough.  Have to be pretty light on fuel if
I
> > > have
> > > > a passenger.  The only prop damage, mostly sand abrasion of paint
and
> > > stone
> > > > dings were when I flew off the initial hours after certification at
> > > > Sebastian.  The prop has since been repainted and looks like new
> except
> > > for
> > > > one ding from a stone (I think) that happened at RYY, a paved
runway.
> I
> > > > have a total of 155 hours on the plane and I would prefer a grass
> strip
> > > but
> > > > a nice long one like Leeward Air Ranch in central Florida.  The only
> > > > downside I have from the turf strip is the dead bug residue on the
> prop
> > > that
> > > > is more prevalent than from a paved surface.  I guess you could hit
> the
> > > > grass on rotation but that hasn't been a problem since it's mowed
once
> a
> > > > week in the growing season.  I don't believe the grass
> clipping/residue
> > > that
> > > > may hit the prop is going to any more significant than the bugs that
> run
> > > > into the prop.  I have friends with an XL and long EZ that haven't
had
> a
> > > > problem at my strip.
> > > > Hope this helps,
> > > > John Ward
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <TimRhod at aol.com>
> > > > To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 10:08 PM
> > > > Subject: REFLECTOR: XLRG on Grass
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Can Anyone share their experience using the XLRG on grass strips.
> Does
> > > it
> > > > > hurt you MT prop if it hits the grass?  Does it hit the grass on
> > > rotation
> > > > or
> > > > > landing?   Any gear problems on grass. Im considering retiring to
> an
> > > > airpark
> > > > > and a lot of the ones I'm considering have grass Strips. If grass
is
> > OK
> > > > what
> > > > > would you consider a minimum runway length?   Thanks Tim
> Rhodenbaugh
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