REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
Fred Marconi
fmarconi at bellsouth.net
Mon Aug 9 20:10:06 CDT 2004
Lynn,
Regarding my canard. I felt the plane was flying fine but a friend of
mine who has built several planes, amongh then a twin cozy, went out with
me. He flet the plane did not get enough nose up attitude on the power off
stall. I was landing fine at 90 kts. and stalling at 78 kts. I flew up to
Velocity and spoke with Scott Swing and discussed my communications and
experience. He looked at the canard and advised me that the trailing edge
exteded too far onto the elevator. The trailing edge of the elevator
according to the instructions should terminate at the cord of the elevator
or midpoint to the anterior curvature. We first trimmed back 1/8 of an inch
and reduced our stall speed considerably and was still not at the elevator
cord position so I decided to cut back another 1/8 of an inch and make sure
I had a one tongue blade clearance between the underside of the trailing
edge and the elevator. The stall difference was fenomenal. On a landing
approach my friend by coincidence was watching me land and said that my nose
high ttitude on the approach was as it should be. We went flying several
weeks later and he was very satisfied. On a power off stall with two people
the plane looses about 300 to 400 feet per minute.
I have aluminum rod on the keel with a 3/4" stick with the Velocity mod
and steel rods for the ailerons and the long wings and ailerons 1' longer
than called for in the instructions.
The longest trip I have made so far has been a 300 mile and many 200 mile
trips I do not find that I have to fight to kep my course. I do have a
problem with the motor provided by Velocity for aileron trim. I would like
to find a better option that the string on the pulley and bellcrank. I have
not added the adhesive to the string, when I get to it maybe the string will
not slip.
I have also spent some time insuring my airspeed indicator is reading
correct. unlike most velocities I have place the damn 1/4 inch trailing the
static holes. I played with several positions and found this the best. I
have static ports on both sides as per the instructions. The damn is 1mm
high. I set my altimeter at 0 minus airport altitude plus tower altitude
and buzzed at full power past the tower at tower altitude and adjusted the
position of the damn until I got a reading of 0 on the altimeter. I now
know that my stall speed is what it should be 70 kts with one person and 72
kts with two on board.
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> Fred,
> Thanks for all the good comparative info for me. I'm going to re-set my
> ailerons above the trailing edge where I had them originally. (I only
set
> them below the leading edge for the "self centering" experiment.)
>
> Some questions:
> -- What put you on to the idea that your canard trailing edge was
extending
> too far aft? (The only thing I have heard of to open up the slot between
the
> canard and the elevator was to remove the cuffs on the elevator leading
> edge.)
> -- Do you have steel or aluminum torque tubes in the wings?
> -- Is yours a short wing or a long wing?
>
> Your airplane is better than mine on stall. With myself and another 200
> pounder in the front seat I don't want to have the wheels touch below 85
> knots.
> I think your choice of longer ailerons was very smart - I wish I had
them.
> On my airplane the movements to keep the airplane on course are
certainly
> small and light; it's just that I have to be constantly making them and
on
> long flights this can be tiring. I have a NavAid autopilot which gives
me
> some relief in wing-leveler mode but it doesn't track VORs worth a hoot.
And
> I don't know for sure if there is even a way to couple my GPS-295 to it.
> Regards,
> Lynn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>
>
> > Lynn,
> >
> > Thanks for your communications. The aileron rolls were done by the
test
> > pilot, Dave Manary the day the plane flew for the first time. He did
> three
> > or four left and right rolls. He stated that he had no problems and
that
> > the plane performed well. I have it in my agenda to call him to go
out
> and
> > have him teach me how to do the rolls.
> >
> > My ailerons are one foot larger than called for in the instructions.
> > Since I have never flown at length another Velocity it is difficult
for me
> > to make comparisons. My Velocity was the first complex high
performance
> > plane I have flown. I have now 60 hours in my velocity and I find,
> barring
> > my limited experience, that the plane behaves well at 90 - 80 kts.
The
> > biggest problem that I had was my stall speed. This was due to the
fact
> > that the trailing edge of the canard extended too far over the
elevator.
> I
> > had to cut it back 1/4 inch. Now I come over the threshhold at 80 and
> touch
> > doen at 78 with two people and easily keep the nose up at touchdown.
I do
> > not feel at any time that I do not have aileron control. I hold my
stick
> > with my fingers and keep a light grip making slight movements as
needed.
> I
> > have played with my ailerons adjusting them and find that for my taste
1/8
> > of an inch above the trailing edge of the wings gives me the response
I
> > like. If I set them even of below the trailing edge they become too
heavy
> > and slugish.
> >
> > On your explanation for long trips and getting of course due to
small
> > adjustments. I find the aileros exptremely responsive where slight
> pressure
> > will bring about a roll. I found the autopilot, when it was working,
had
> no
> > problem to keep the plane on the GPS course. Since the movements to
bring
> > about a small course change is so light, I wonder if aileron centering
> > becomes an issue. It seems that aileron centering becomes an issue
during
> > wide deflection of the aileron rather than small roll adjustments.
After
> I
> > get the A/P working I will check on this again and see who well the
> system
> > keeps it's course and report back. On very steep bank turns tha plane
> > responds quite well. I have tighten my system so there is no play
between
> > the joy stick and the keel torque tube this made a bif difference.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
<reflector at tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> >
> >
> > > That's why it's NOT regarded as an acrobatic airplane. High
aspect
> > > ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron
area/deflection
> > > result in very poor roll rates. The result is that when you
attempt a
> > > maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you
will
> > > scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You can compensate by
starting
> the
> > > maneuver with a rising velocity vector. I pull my nose up sharply
> > > before starting the roll. I don't have to gain any altitude, just
> > > establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector.
Try
> > > that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher
nose
> > > attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit). You also might
try
> > > keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder.
Swept
> > > wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
> > > authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you
have at
> > > least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver). Airspeed is
your
> > > friend. It makes you roll faster The quicker you get it done,
the
> less
> > > you scoop out.
> > >
> > > I've done a couple. Performance was substandard so I don't do it
any
> > > more ... Jim S.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lynn Gallup wrote:
> > >
> > > >Fred,
> > > >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are
always
> > > >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his
> technique
> > and
> > > >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I
> always
> > wind
> > > >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the
direction of
> > the
> > > >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft.
loss of
> > > >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never
been
> > able to
> > > >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a
> particular
> > thing
> > > >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing, maybe
> that
> > makes
> > > >a difference.)
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Lynn
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> > > >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and
Builders
> > list"
> > > ><reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> What am I missing. We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the
> plane
> > > >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my
> tubes
> > are
> > > >>steel rather than the aluminum.
> > > >>
> > > >> Fred
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
> > > >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > Ronnie,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> > > >> > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
> > > >> > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
> > > >> > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
> > > >> > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
> > > >> > than moving the aileron.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Jim
> > > >> > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
> > > >> > > job of returning to
> > > >> > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
> > > >> > > In fact, if you
> > > >> > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
> > > >> > > even steeper.
> > > >> > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
> > > >> > > that is desirable in
> > > >> > > a certified airplane.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
> > > >> > > dihedral effect.
> > > >> > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
> > > >> > > do this, although I
> > > >> > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
> > > >> > > wouldn't think the Velo
> > > >> > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> > > >> > > under its wings - the
> > > >> > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
> > > >> > > the swept wings
> > > >> > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
> > > >> > > very stable for
> > > >> > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed,
> > > >> > > on final. Just
> > > >> > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> > > >> > > sounds scary. That
> > > >> > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
> > > >> > > saying that your
> > > >> > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
> > > >> > > Sounds like
> > > >> > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
> > > >> > > linkages?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
> > > >> > > near the aileron end.
> > > >> > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
> > > >> > > with the "off
> > > >> > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
> > > >> > > that it matters where
> > > >> > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
> > > >> > > line. As long as
> > > >> > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
> > > >> > > to the aileron bell
> > > >> > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
> > > >> > > "wrap-up" that you
> > > >> > > mention.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Ronnie
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> > > >> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > > >> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> > > >> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > | Velo-people,
> > > >> > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> > > >> > > stiffness". This really
> > > >> > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
> > > >> > > following a turn than
> > > >> > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
> > > >> > > ailerons displayed
> > > >> > > almost
> > > >> > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
> > > >> > > stiffness or friction
> > > >> > > | in the system.
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
> > > >> > > fairly smooth and
> > > >> > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
> > > >> > > "stiffness and
> > > >> > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
> > > >> > > that there might be
> > > >> > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
> > > >> > > possibly, to bending
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
> > > >> > > at the center of
> > > >> > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
> > > >> > > ailerons so they
> > > >> > > had
> > > >> > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
> > > >> > > torque-load the
> > > >> > > system
> > > >> > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> > > >> > > different. I have now flown
> > > >> > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
> > > >> > > put it through it's
> > > >> > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
> > > >> > > but not enough.
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> > > >> > > second-order fix, good enough
> > > >> > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> > > >> > > really don't want to
> > > >> > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my
> > > >> > > head. So I am now
> > > >> > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
> > > >> > > aileron torque tubes
> > > >> > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
> > > >> > > the tubes attach
> > > >> > > to
> > > >> > > | the ailerons.
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
> > > >> > > ideas?
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | Regards,
> > > >> > > | Lynn
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | _______________________________________________
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> > > >> > > |
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> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > =====
> > > >> > James F. Agnew
> > > >> > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> > > >> > Tampa, FL
> > > >> > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > To change your email address, visit
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> > > >> >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
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> > > >>
> > > >>
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> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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>
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