REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
Jim Sower
canarder at frontiernet.net
Sat Aug 7 11:21:25 CDT 2004
That's why it's NOT regarded as an acrobatic airplane. High aspect
ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron area/deflection
result in very poor roll rates. The result is that when you attempt a
maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you will
scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You can compensate by starting the
maneuver with a rising velocity vector. I pull my nose up sharply
before starting the roll. I don't have to gain any altitude, just
establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector. Try
that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher nose
attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit). You also might try
keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder. Swept
wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you have at
least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver). Airspeed is your
friend. It makes you roll faster The quicker you get it done, the less
you scoop out.
I've done a couple. Performance was substandard so I don't do it any
more ... Jim S.
Lynn Gallup wrote:
>Fred,
>I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are always
>terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his technique and
>to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I always wind
>up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the direction of the
>roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft. loss of
>altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never been able to
>duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a particular thing
>which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing, maybe that makes
>a difference.)
>Thanks,
>Lynn
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
>To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
><reflector at tvbf.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>
>
>
>
>> What am I missing. We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the plane
>>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my tubes are
>>steel rather than the aluminum.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>>
>>
>> > Ronnie,
>> >
>> > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
>> > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
>> > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
>> > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
>> > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
>> > than moving the aileron.
>> >
>> > Jim
>> > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
>> > >
>> > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
>> > > job of returning to
>> > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
>> > > In fact, if you
>> > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
>> > > even steeper.
>> > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
>> > > that is desirable in
>> > > a certified airplane.
>> > >
>> > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
>> > > dihedral effect.
>> > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
>> > > do this, although I
>> > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
>> > > wouldn't think the Velo
>> > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
>> > > under its wings - the
>> > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
>> > > the swept wings
>> > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
>> > > very stable for
>> > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed,
>> > > on final. Just
>> > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
>> > >
>> > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
>> > > sounds scary. That
>> > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
>> > > saying that your
>> > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
>> > > Sounds like
>> > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
>> > > linkages?
>> > >
>> > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
>> > > near the aileron end.
>> > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
>> > > with the "off
>> > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
>> > > that it matters where
>> > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
>> > > line. As long as
>> > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
>> > > to the aileron bell
>> > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
>> > > "wrap-up" that you
>> > > mention.
>> > >
>> > > Ronnie
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
>> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
>> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > | Velo-people,
>> > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
>> > > stiffness". This really
>> > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
>> > > following a turn than
>> > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
>> > > ailerons displayed
>> > > almost
>> > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
>> > > stiffness or friction
>> > > | in the system.
>> > > |
>> > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
>> > > fairly smooth and
>> > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
>> > > "stiffness and
>> > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
>> > > that there might be
>> > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
>> > > possibly, to bending
>> > > of
>> > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
>> > > at the center of
>> > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
>> > > ailerons so they
>> > > had
>> > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
>> > > torque-load the
>> > > system
>> > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
>> > > different. I have now flown
>> > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
>> > > put it through it's
>> > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
>> > > but not enough.
>> > > |
>> > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
>> > > second-order fix, good enough
>> > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
>> > > really don't want to
>> > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my
>> > > head. So I am now
>> > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
>> > > aileron torque tubes
>> > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
>> > > the tubes attach
>> > > to
>> > > | the ailerons.
>> > > |
>> > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
>> > > ideas?
>> > > |
>> > > | Regards,
>> > > | Lynn
>> > > |
>> > > | _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> > =====
>> > James F. Agnew
>> > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
>> > Tampa, FL
>> > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>>
>>
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>
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