REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

Lynn Gallup LGallup at mn.rr.com
Fri Aug 6 08:13:53 CDT 2004 

Mine is a gull-wing velocity but even so I have an additional torque tube support block in the center of the console. (It was installed to keep the auto pilot from hunting because the servo is attached to that torque tube.) So I'm pretty sure the so-called "self centering" issue I have been talking about is not the console torque tube.
Lynn

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: bkuc1 at tampabay.rr.com 
  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 11:21 PM
  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering


  It is my understanding that the twisting that could happen is in the keel not in the wings,  I remember hearing that the original gull wings velos do not have this problem because the alum tubing in the keel is much shorter..  Do the planes that have the yokes have this problem, since they only have the alum in the wings?  I heard that if you make a bracket and insert it in the keel by the rear seats, that the problem mentioned here is diminished.

  Bob Kuc 



  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Jim Agnew <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com> 

  Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2004 9:59 pm 

  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering 


  > Ronnie, 
  > 
  > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting 
  > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to 
  > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub 
  > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and 
  > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather 
  > than moving the aileron. 
  > 
  > Jim 
  > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote: 
  > 
  > > I'm not sure you have a problem. 
  > > 
  > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good 
  > > job of returning to 
  > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn. 
  > > In fact, if you 
  > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn 
  > > even steeper. 
  > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why 
  > > that is desirable in 
  > > a certified airplane. 
  > > 
  > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is 
  > > dihedral effect. 
  > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to 
  > > do this, although I 
  > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You 
  > > wouldn't think the Velo 
  > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging 
  > > under its wings - the 
  > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess 
  > > the swept wings 
  > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies, 
  > > very stable for 
  > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed, 
  > > on final. Just 
  > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane! 
  > > 
  > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered 
  > > sounds scary. That 
  > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you 
  > > saying that your 
  > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air? 
  > > Sounds like 
  > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control 
  > > linkages? 
  > > 
  > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector 
  > > near the aileron end. 
  > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see 
  > > with the "off 
  > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see 
  > > that it matters where 
  > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge 
  > > line. As long as 
  > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points 
  > > to the aileron bell 
  > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the 
  > > "wrap-up" that you 
  > > mention. 
  > > 
  > > Ronnie 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com> 
  > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" 
  > > <reflector at tvbf.org> 
  > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM 
  > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > | Velo-people, 
  > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron 
  > > stiffness". This really 
  > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering 
  > > following a turn than 
  > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the 
  > > ailerons displayed 
  > > almost 
  > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to 
  > > stiffness or friction 
  > > | in the system. 
  > > | 
  > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed 
  > > fairly smooth and 
  > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the 
  > > "stiffness and 
  > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated 
  > > that there might be 
  > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due, 
  > > possibly, to bending 
  > > of 
  > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached 
  > > at the center of 
  > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the 
  > > ailerons so they 
  > > had 
  > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would 
  > > torque-load the 
  > > system 
  > > | in flight and I should feel at least something 
  > > different. I have now flown 
  > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much 
  > > put it through it's 
  > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped 
  > > but not enough. 
  > > | 
  > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a 
  > > second-order fix, good enough 
  > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I 
  > > really don't want to 
  > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my 
  > > head. So I am now 
  > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum 
  > > aileron torque tubes 
  > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where 
  > > the tubes attach 
  > > to 
  > > | the ailerons. 
  > > | 
  > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these 
  > > ideas? 
  > > | 
  > > | Regards, 
  > > | Lynn 
  > > | 
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  > 
  > 
  > ===== 
  > James F. Agnew 
  > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com 
  > Tampa, FL 
  > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying 
  > _______________________________________________ 
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