REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

Jim Agnew jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 4 14:52:57 CDT 2004 

OK Ronnie, 

The massive amount of torque could be simulated by holding
one aileron at the wing trailing edge with a thumb and one
finger and moving the stick full right and  left.  Enough
of my time wasted on this subject.

Jim
--- Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:

> Ronnie,
> 
> The factory sells a new stick that has a "C" style mount
> to the torque tube 
> instead of just bolting it through the tube&stick. 
> Completely eliminates 
> the play there.  I guess you could weld one onto your
> existing stick
> 
> Scott
> 
> At 07:16 AM 8/4/2004, you wrote:
> >How can the tubing in the wing bow???  It is in a rather
> tight tunnel in the
> >wing.  I had to wrap some sand paper around a piece of
> tubing to open it up
> >the hole to keep the tube from rubbing inside the wing. 
> Just how much
> >force/torque were you and your engineer friends using to
> determine that
> >there was a problem with the aluminum tubing warping?
> >
> >In normal flight, we are only talking about 10 pounds of
> stick force at the
> >very most.  And by the way, re the warping in the keel -
> on my Elite RG,
> >there IS a support bearing halfway down the keel. 
> Again, no way for the
> >aluminum aileron tube in the keel to warp.  If there is
> any lost motion in
> >the system, I would suspect the push/pull cables.  And
> at the method used to
> >attach the control stick to the aileron torque tube - I
> gotta fix that!
> >
> >Ronnie
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
> >To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
> >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >
> >
> >| Ronnie,
> >|
> >| The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> >| application will deliver all of the torque and motion
> to
> >| the aileron.  When it is swung through an arc the AL
> tub
> >| will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to
> high and
> >| the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube
> rather
> >| than moving the aileron.
> >|
> >| Jim
> >| --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >|
> >| > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> >| >
> >| > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very
> good
> >| > job of returning to
> >| > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a
> turn.
> >| >  In fact, if you
> >| > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would
> turn
> >| > even steeper.
> >| > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand
> why
> >| > that is desirable in
> >| > a certified airplane.
> >| >
> >| > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings
> level is
> >| > dihedral effect.
> >| > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying
> to
> >| > do this, although I
> >| > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG.  You
> >| > wouldn't think the Velo
> >| > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> >| > under its wings - the
> >| > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out.  I
> guess
> >| > the swept wings
> >| > causes the dihedral effect.  I love the way mine
> flies,
> >| > very stable for
> >| > cross country and IFR.  And it handles well at low
> speed,
> >| > on final.  Just
> >| > lands fast like a canard.  Otherwise, GREAT
> airplane!
> >| >
> >| > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> >| > sounds scary.  That
> >| > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect.  Are
> you
> >| > saying that your
> >| > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the
> air?
> >| > Sounds like
> >| > something is giving too much slop in your aileron
> control
> >| > linkages?
> >| >
> >| > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no
> connector
> >| > near the aileron end.
> >| > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say
> they see
> >| > with the "off
> >| > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement.  I can't
> see
> >| > that it matters where
> >| > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the
> hinge
> >| > line.  As long as
> >| > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it
> points
> >| > to the aileron bell
> >| > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand
> the
> >| > "wrap-up" that you
> >| > mention.
> >| >
> >| > Ronnie
> >| >
> >| >
> >| >
> >| >
> >| >
> >| >
> >| > ----- Original Message -----
> >| > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> >| > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >| > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >| > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> >| > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >| >
> >| >
> >| > | Velo-people,
> >| > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> >| > stiffness". This really
> >| > | related more to the degree of aileron
> self-centering
> >| > following a turn than
> >| > | to stiffness per se.  On my airplane I thought the
> >| > ailerons displayed
> >| > almost
> >| > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this
> to
> >| > stiffness or friction
> >| > | in the system.
> >| > |
> >| > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control
> seemed
> >| > fairly smooth and
> >| > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject
> the
> >| > "stiffness and
> >| > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I
> postulated
> >| > that there might be
> >| > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system
> due,
> >| > possibly, to bending
> >| > of
> >| > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not
> attached
> >| > at the center of
> >| > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I
> adjusted the
> >| > ailerons so they
> >| > had
> >| > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this
> would
> >| > torque-load the
> >| > system
> >| > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> >| > different. I have now flown
> >| > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty
> much
> >| > put it through it's
> >| > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely
> helped
> >| > but not enough.
> >| > |
> >| > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> >| > second-order fix, good enough
> >| > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> >| > really don't want to
> >| > | increase the droop;  I might break something -
> Like my
> >| > head. So I am now
> >| > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the
> aluminum
> >| > aileron torque tubes
> >| > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints
> where
> >| > the tubes attach
> >| > to
> >| > | the ailerons.
> >| > |
> >| > | Have any of you had any experience with either of
> these
> >| > ideas?
> >| > |
> >| > | Regards,
> >| > | Lynn
> >| > |
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> >|
> >|
> >| =====
> >| James F. Agnew
> >| Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> >| Tampa, FL
> >| Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> >| _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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> 
> 
> "Those who sacrifice freedom to get security, deserve
> neither."
> - Benjamin Franklin
> 
> 
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> 


=====
James F. Agnew
Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
Tampa, FL
Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying

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