REFLECTOR:AERO COMPOSITES PUSHER PROP
Scott Baker
reflector@tvbf.org
Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:40:01 -0400
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I know we're "only" talking about a few thousand dollars - but to keep =
the facts straight for those who are evaluating the cost of a =
constant-speed propeller for their Velocity XL ... the Mt-model MTV-9 =
propeller with spinner costs $9,900 delivered to the east coast. The =
Aero Composites propeller costs approximately $13,900, plus (what was =
it?) $900 for a spinner, plus the cost of delivery ... putting the total =
price close to $15,000. The cost difference is therefore closer to =
$5,000. Before everyone goes running to "the land of milk and honey" =
promised by Aero Composites - please remember that they have never =
designed or produced a pusher propeller before. No one knows how well =
the propeller will work - or how well the blades will stand up to abuse =
- or if their hub will be any better than the Mt- product. All =
indications are that Aero Composites is a great company with lots of =
talent and a promising product - but we really don't know how things =
will turn out until their units are in the air and subjected to the test =
of time. I hear several people complaining about Mt-. I'm guessing =
there are about 130-Mt propellers running on Velocity aircraft. Most =
are happy with the performance of the propeller. We (the factory) have =
experienced service difficulties on 2 Mt-propellers - these related to =
rapid wearing of metal where the blades join the hub - and what was =
mentioned before, grease leaks. We suffered going though paying for a =
major hub overhaul that on a propeller with less than 200-hours. This =
is not what you would expect for a $9,900 propeller. I welcome =
competition - but I'm not sure what competition Aero Composites will =
provide with a product that sells for 50% higher than the Mt propeller. =
Those who have experienced damaged blades and high repair costs look =
forward to the prospects of a "bullet proof" prop. It's a hard decision =
to weigh - and the question remains, is the $15K Aero Composites =
propeller going to "deliver" everything that we want? And least we not =
forget, Mt- helped sponsor the "beer garden" at the Velocity BBQ at SnF =
... that counts for something ... doesn't it??
Scott B.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chuck Jensen=20
To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:AERO COMPOSITES PUSHER PROP
Lon,
You're point is dead on about $150K for an aircraft, then we complain =
about a $12K prop. Some of it is intuition. Intuitively, it just =
doesn't seem right that two or three sticks of wood or plastic should =
cost almost half of what an engine costs, even though the engineering is =
obvious a little tricky and more difficult to execute properly than one =
would think---just ask MT. And of course, the reason it costs $150K to =
begin with is half the stuff costs twice what it should.
We look forward to more of your comments in the future. If you =
contribute long enough, you too can make a fool of yourself like many of =
us have mutiple times. But so far, your record is sterling.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On =
Behalf Of Lon Hoskins
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:00 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:AERO COMPOSITES PUSHER PROP
I've been reading the Reflector for years. Never commented before. =
I've noticed many complaints and much bitching about MT props., =
reliability, service, etc. Everyone seems to be looking for an =
alternative . (a cheap one, ain't going to happen). Now we have some =
competition. $14850 vs. $12k+ and expensive shipping from Germany, seems =
close to me. We are building a $150K+aircraft therefore it doesn't =
seem excessive to spend a few thousand more for better reliability, =
service and not having to deal with the germans. Add up having to ship =
the MT back and forth when it has problems it comes out fairly close. =
With a pusher prop I want something that will take some beating. Just =
my opinion.
=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On =
Behalf Of HYTEC45@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 7:43 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:AERO COMPOSITES PUSHER PROP
=20
In a message dated 4/26/2004 9:36:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, =
KeithHallsten@quiknet.com writes:
One plus for me is that final assembly is done at American =
Propeller in Redding, California (which company is also the MT service =
center for the western US), but that might not be as appealing for those =
on the east side of the country!
I have been using American Propeller for the repair of my mt. They =
helped with the blade replacement that cracked from harmonic vibration =
(hence; restricted RPM). They also recommended the hub modification to =
prevent seal leakage. After the hub was modified by mt, and reassembled =
by American, all three blades leaked big time from the start. After =
removing again after 5 hours of operation, Todd, (American Propeller) =
got approval from mt (after my bitching) to disassemble and reinstall =
new seals (others were new). Again, after return, all three blades =
began leaking grease big time. After contacting American Propeller, and =
sending more photos, I was told by Todd, "I don't know what to tell you, =
maybe you should send it to mt Florida for repair." Todd also said that =
I could fly it until the grease stops coming out as until then, you know =
you still have grease. I'm not talking about just a little sheen on the =
prop, but several black streaks on each blade even after only 1/2 hr. of =
flight. American Propeller has told me in the past that mt is very bad =
in regard to service and warranty.
=20
Here I sit with a propeller that was modified to prevent seal =
leakage as recommended by them (never leaked before) yet leaks in all =
three blades, and a repair shop that told me to basically "pound sand" =
because they can't fix it.
=20
My only problem was that I purchased and received a piece of crap, =
with failures that are no fault of the owner, yet I am being treated =
like it is.
=20
As always, I agree with Al. When the grease is gone, I'll put my =
fixed pitch back on and be done with the problems. Then I'll pull it =
apart myself and address the problem.
=20
TEC (I wonder how much grease it holds).
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know we're "only" talking about a few =
thousand=20
dollars - but to keep the facts straight for those who are evaluating =
the cost=20
of a constant-speed propeller for their Velocity XL ... the =
Mt-model=20
MTV-9 propeller with spinner costs $9,900 delivered to the east =
coast. The=20
Aero Composites propeller costs approximately $13,900, plus (what was =
it?) $900=20
for a spinner, plus the cost of delivery ... putting the total price =
close to=20
$15,000. The cost difference is therefore closer to $5,000. =
Before=20
everyone goes running to "the land of milk and honey" promised by Aero=20
Composites - please remember that they have never designed or produced a =
pusher=20
propeller before. No one knows how well the propeller will work - =
or how=20
well the blades will stand up to abuse - or if their hub will be any =
better than=20
the Mt- product. All indications are that Aero Composites is a =
great=20
company with lots of talent and a promising product - but we really =
don't know=20
how things will turn out until their units are in the air and subjected =
to the=20
test of time. I hear several people complaining about Mt-. =
I'm=20
guessing there are about 130-Mt propellers running on Velocity =
aircraft. =20
Most are happy with the performance of the propeller. We (the =
factory)=20
have experienced service difficulties on 2 Mt-propellers - these related =
to=20
rapid wearing of metal where the blades join the hub - and what was =
mentioned=20
before, grease leaks. We suffered going though paying for a major =
hub=20
overhaul that on a propeller with less than 200-hours. This is not =
what=20
you would expect for a $9,900 propeller. I welcome competition - =
but I'm=20
not sure what competition Aero Composites will provide with a product =
that sells=20
for 50% higher than the Mt propeller. Those who have experienced =
damaged=20
blades and high repair costs look forward to the prospects of a "bullet =
proof"=20
prop. It's a hard decision to weigh - and the question remains, is =
the=20
$15K Aero Composites propeller going to "deliver" everything that we =
want? =20
And least we not forget, Mt- helped sponsor the "beer garden" at the =
Velocity=20
BBQ at SnF ... that counts for something ... doesn't it??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Scott B.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcjensen@dts9000.com =
href=3D"mailto:cjensen@dts9000.com">Chuck=20
Jensen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dreflector@tvbf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:'reflector@tvbf.org'">'reflector@tvbf.org'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 27, 2004 =
4:42=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: REFLECTOR:AERO =
COMPOSITES=20
PUSHER PROP</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Lon,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>You're point is dead on about $150K for an aircraft, then we =
complain=20
about a $12K prop. Some of it is intuition. Intuitively, =
it just=20
doesn't seem right that two or three sticks of wood or plastic should =
cost=20
almost half of what an engine costs, even though the engineering is =
obvious a=20
little tricky and more difficult to execute properly than one would=20
think---just ask MT. And of course, the reason it costs $150K to =
begin=20
with is half the stuff costs twice what it should.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>We=20
look forward to more of your comments in the future. If you =
contribute=20
long enough, you too can make a fool of yourself like many of us=20
have mutiple times. But so far, your record is=20
sterling.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D939341120-27042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Chuck</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Lon=20
Hoskins<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:00 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
reflector@tvbf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: REFLECTOR:AERO COMPOSITES =
PUSHER=20
PROP<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: =
-0.5in"><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I=92ve =
been reading=20
the Reflector for years. Never commented before. I=92ve noticed many =
complaints and much bitching about MT props., reliability, =
service,=20
etc. Everyone seems to be looking for an alternative . =
(a cheap=20
one, ain=92t going to happen). Now we have some competition. $14850 =
vs. $12k+=20
and expensive shipping from Germany, seems close to me. We =
are=20
building a $150K+aircraft therefore it doesn=92t seem excessive to =
spend=20
a few thousand more for better reliability, service and not having =
to deal=20
with the germans. Add up having to ship the MT back and forth when =
it has=20
problems it comes out fairly close. With a pusher prop I want =
something that=20
will take some beating. Just my =
opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">=20
reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] <B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of=20
</SPAN></B>HYTEC45@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, April 27, 2004 =
7:43=20
AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
reflector@tvbf.org<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>=20
Re: REFLECTOR:AERO COMPOSITES PUSHER =
PROP</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In a message dated =
4/26/2004=20
9:36:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, KeithHallsten@quiknet.com=20
writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; =
PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One plus for me is =
that final=20
assembly is done at American Propeller in <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City=20
w:st=3D"on">Redding</st1:City>, <st1:State=20
w:st=3D"on">California</st1:State></st1:place> (which company =
is also=20
the MT service center for the western US), but that might not be =
as=20
appealing for those on the east side of the=20
country!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have been using =
American=20
Propeller for the repair of my mt. They helped with the blade=20
replacement that cracked from harmonic vibration (hence; restricted=20
RPM). They also recommended the hub modification to prevent =
seal=20
leakage. After the hub was modified by mt, and =
reassembled=20
by American, all three blades leaked big time from the start. =
After=20
removing again after 5 hours of operation, Todd, (American =
Propeller) got=20
approval from mt (after my bitching) to disassemble and reinstall =
new seals=20
(others were new). Again, after return, all three blades began =
leaking=20
grease big time. After contacting American Propeller, and =
sending more=20
photos, I was told by Todd, "I don't know what to tell you, maybe =
you should=20
send it to mt <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place=20
w:st=3D"on">Florida</st1:place></st1:State> for =
repair." Todd also=20
said that I could fly it until the grease stops coming out as until =
then,=20
you know you still have grease. I'm not talking about just a =
little=20
sheen on the prop, but several black streaks on each blade even =
after only=20
1/2 hr. of flight. American Propeller has told me in the past =
that mt=20
is very bad in regard to service and=20
warranty.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Here I sit with a =
propeller that=20
was modified to prevent seal leakage as recommended by =
them (never=20
leaked before) yet leaks in all three blades, and a repair shop =
that=20
told me to basically "pound sand" because they can't fix=20
it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My only problem was =
that I=20
purchased and received a piece of crap, with failures that are =
no fault=20
of the owner, yet I am being treated like it=20
is.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As always, =
I agree with=20
Al. When the grease is gone, I'll put my fixed pitch back on =
and be=20
done with the problems. Then I'll pull it apart myself =
and=20
address the problem.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">TEC (I wonder how much =
grease it=20
=
holds).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE=
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