REFLECTOR:ATP Turbines - info
Cindie Alexander-Paschal
reflector@tvbf.org
Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:58:32 -0500
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We can tell you from experience that ATP spells trouble and loose your
money. Don't fall into the same trap we did. We gave them a deposit two
years ago, and never received our engine. Just this month after starting
court proceedings we got our deposit. We can't say it enough, Scott is
right they are selling SNAKE OIL NOT ENGINES.
Scott Baker wrote:
>To anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing an engine from ATP -
>Affordable Turbine Power - LISTEN UP!
>What follows may save you $10,000 (or more)!
>ATP is selling "snake oil" as far as my opinion goes.
>Several Velocity customers have placed orders and deposits for ATP engines -
>and have been the victims of broken promises and outright fraud.
>One Velocity customer placed a $12,000 deposit with ATP towards a +300hp
>version of their experimental turbine - waited to the promised delivery
>date - called for the delivery - and was told by the "good" folks at ATP
>that:
>a. They discontinued development of the 300 hp version of the engine
>b. They had no immediate plans to renew development of the 300 hp engine
>c. Despite the written order form that guaranteed all deposits would be
>escrowed - ATP nevertheless spent his deposit, and
>d. They have no plans to refund his deposit.
>To add insult to injury, this Velocity builder had purchased a constant
>speed propeller that works (for all intent and purposes) on a turbine
>engine - so he is also "out" the money he invested in the propeller.
>This is not an isolated case. Another Velocity customer that I spoke with
>ALSO lost a substantial amount of money due to the fact that ATP could not
>provide an engine and would not return his deposit.
>
>In the last edition of AOPA's ePilot, it had an announcement piece promoting
>ATP. I wrote to the editor of ePilot and told him about the fraud this
>company has committed and gave him the names of two Velocity customers who
>were cheated by ATP. The editor followed through - and attempted to reach
>ATP for comment. They (ATP) refuse to talk with him. The customers did
>talk with AOPA and told them what happened.
>
>One year ago ATP had a booth at Sun n Fun showing their ATP powered RV.
>Between SnF and Oshkosh the aircraft added (what is reported to be) less
>than 10-hours of flight time. Think about that. 10-hours of flight time in
>4-months. If I were selling a new engine - turbine or otherwise - I would
>hardly boast about 10-hours of operation in 4-months. Something was (and
>is) obviously amiss.
>
>Incredibly, I am contacted by Velocity customers who have talked with ATP
>... and ATP believe it or not, is giving Velocity as a reference! What
>balls!
>
>After SnF 2003, ATP went "underground" at last years Oshkosh and this years
>SnF. They did not have a booth, but they did promote their "fantastic,
>everybody needs to have one turbine engine" at an obscure Cub display. ATP,
>you will find, is not in the show program.
>
>These people have the lowest business ethics. If you are fool enough to
>give them your money, they are happy to take it.
>
>And that's all I have to say about that.
>
>Scott B.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Cervini" <john@johnsonlane.com>
>To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 4:47 PM
>Subject: REFLECTOR:ATP Turbines - info
>
>
>
>
>>This is from another group.
>>************************************
>>
>>Dear Friends,
>>
>>
>>
>>My name is Jeff Davidson, and I am the new CEO of ATP. I am writing to
>>provide an update on our activities, our future and the availability of
>>
>>
>our
>
>
>>products.
>>
>>
>>
>>Many of you are likely wondering what ATP has been doing the past several
>>months and years. In short, we've been preparing ourselves, in a number
>>
>>
>of
>
>
>>ways, to manufacture, market, distribute and support turbine engines for
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>>experimental market. We have been at work building a business team,
>>
>>
>raising
>
>
>>money, finalizing patent applications and production requirements and
>>developing a great and innovative product more fully. Rather than come to
>>market with an incomplete product or plan, when we launch, we will be
>>
>>
>fully
>
>
>>prepared to fill orders and support our customers. In short, we've been
>>working out the challenges and difficulties of this business, so that our
>>customers are well taken care of.
>>
>>
>>
>>We will be selling two engines initially - one in the range of 150-200 hp;
>>another in the range of 200-250 hp. We are pleased to confirm that
>>customers will be able to order ATP engines at the 2004 AirVenture /
>>
>>
>Oshkosh
>
>
>>Air Show, and the first engines will be delivered within 60 days of order.
>>As additional technical information is finalized, we will share this
>>information with you here and on our website. We further anticipate that
>>both of these engines will be sold in the range of $30,000 to $40,000. In
>>addition, depending upon your current configuration, additional
>>
>>
>investments
>
>
>>may be required in the firewall-forward.
>>
>>
>>
>>As you know our engines will offer several significant advantages:
>>
>>
>>
>>- Reliable with a 10,000 hour time between overhaul (TBO)
>>
>>- Low maintenance - with few moving parts
>>
>>- High Performance - with a very high power to weight ratio and
>>very effective performance at altitude
>>
>>- Little reason to throttle to 55% to "save the engine"
>>
>>- Pilot Friendly - Easy to control and operate with the engine
>>computer doing the hard work
>>
>>- Fuel Efficient and Fuel Versatile - Capable of burning nearly
>>
>>
>any
>
>
>>fuel - Gasoline, Diesel, Kerosene, JP-series efficiently
>>
>>
>>
>>Within the next few months, we will have far more detailed flight and
>>operational characteristics available as we gain flight time on additional
>>aircraft beyond the RV-4. We look forward to keeping all of you updated
>>
>>
>on
>
>
>>our progress in this regard. I am confident that this information will
>>answer this forum's questions on the performance characteristics on the
>>engine. We are convinced that the ultimate characteristics and
>>
>>
>performance
>
>
>>of the engine will speak for itself; however, we are in the process of
>>confirming all of our test results. Much like we will not go to market
>>
>>
>with
>
>
>>an incomplete product, the test data that we share must be of the highest
>>quality and not marketing hype - we respectfully ask your indulgence as we
>>conduct additional tests and validate this data.
>>
>>
>>
>>We have partnered with Rivers Aeronautical to provide the firewall-forward
>>kits to the experimental aircraft market. Rivers and ATP will have
>>
>>
>several
>
>
>>of the most popular kits available for purchase at Oshkosh, with plans to
>>quickly offer kits for a broad array of kit aircraft.
>>
>>
>>
>>These firewall forward kits will require the buyer to install a new engine
>>mount if replacing a current engine or to use a Rivers Aeronautical
>>
>>
>firewall
>
>
>>forward kit if doing a new build. Due to our engine's considerably lower
>>weight, as compared to internal combustion, reciprocating engines, the
>>turbine will be moved slightly forward (averaging about 10 to 12 inches)
>>from the firewall to keep the center of mass in its proper location. With
>>this new mount, the aircraft will also need a new cowling. Finally, a
>>variable pitch in-flight adjustable electrical propeller is currently
>>required. This is required because the engine must start in a a no-load
>>condition. The details on the kit are still being hammered out; however,
>>this kit will cost approximately 10,000 to $12,000, and a propeller will
>>cost an additional $5,000 to $10,000. In short, with the purchase of the
>>engine, the propeller and the firewall-forward kit the buyer is fully
>>prepared to install our engine - we don't expect any hidden costs of any
>>sort.
>>
>>
>>
>>Going forward, we are very excited about our ability to deliver these
>>products to the experimental market. We are confident that our product
>>brings a host of advantages to the kit builder and pilot and we look
>>
>>
>forward
>
>
>>to sharing more information with you in the coming months. In the
>>
>>
>meantime,
>
>
>>please bear with us as we prepare to hit the ground running in July.
>>Between now and then, expect a number of changes with respect to our
>>presence in the market and our ability to share information with you.
>>
>>
>We're
>
>
>>confident that the team we've assembled, in conjunction with ATP's
>>
>>
>founders
>
>
>>- Charlie and Chuck Nearhoof - will exceed your expectations.
>>
>>
>>
>>Again, thanks for your interest - and we look forward to delivering a
>>practical, sensible turbine engine to you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Jeff Davidson
>>
>>Chief Executive Officer
>>
>>ATP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>--
>
>
>>----
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATP1/
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>ATP1-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>To change your email address, visit
>>
>>
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>
>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
>
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We can tell you from experience that ATP spells trouble and loose your
money. Don't fall into the same trap we did. We gave them a deposit two
years ago, and never received our engine. Just this month after
starting court proceedings we got our deposit. We can't say it enough,
Scott is right they are selling SNAKE OIL NOT ENGINES.<br>
<br>
Scott Baker wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid000d01c4297e$3c446570$0200a8c0@DAD">
<pre wrap="">To anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing an engine from ATP -
Affordable Turbine Power - LISTEN UP!
What follows may save you $10,000 (or more)!
ATP is selling "snake oil" as far as my opinion goes.
Several Velocity customers have placed orders and deposits for ATP engines -
and have been the victims of broken promises and outright fraud.
One Velocity customer placed a $12,000 deposit with ATP towards a +300hp
version of their experimental turbine - waited to the promised delivery
date - called for the delivery - and was told by the "good" folks at ATP
that:
a. They discontinued development of the 300 hp version of the engine
b. They had no immediate plans to renew development of the 300 hp engine
c. Despite the written order form that guaranteed all deposits would be
escrowed - ATP nevertheless spent his deposit, and
d. They have no plans to refund his deposit.
To add insult to injury, this Velocity builder had purchased a constant
speed propeller that works (for all intent and purposes) on a turbine
engine - so he is also "out" the money he invested in the propeller.
This is not an isolated case. Another Velocity customer that I spoke with
ALSO lost a substantial amount of money due to the fact that ATP could not
provide an engine and would not return his deposit.
In the last edition of AOPA's ePilot, it had an announcement piece promoting
ATP. I wrote to the editor of ePilot and told him about the fraud this
company has committed and gave him the names of two Velocity customers who
were cheated by ATP. The editor followed through - and attempted to reach
ATP for comment. They (ATP) refuse to talk with him. The customers did
talk with AOPA and told them what happened.
One year ago ATP had a booth at Sun n Fun showing their ATP powered RV.
Between SnF and Oshkosh the aircraft added (what is reported to be) less
than 10-hours of flight time. Think about that. 10-hours of flight time in
4-months. If I were selling a new engine - turbine or otherwise - I would
hardly boast about 10-hours of operation in 4-months. Something was (and
is) obviously amiss.
Incredibly, I am contacted by Velocity customers who have talked with ATP
... and ATP believe it or not, is giving Velocity as a reference! What
balls!
After SnF 2003, ATP went "underground" at last years Oshkosh and this years
SnF. They did not have a booth, but they did promote their "fantastic,
everybody needs to have one turbine engine" at an obscure Cub display. ATP,
you will find, is not in the show program.
These people have the lowest business ethics. If you are fool enough to
give them your money, they are happy to take it.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Scott B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cervini" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:john@johnsonlane.com"><john@johnsonlane.com></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><reflector@tvbf.org></a>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 4:47 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ATP Turbines - info
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This is from another group.
************************************
Dear Friends,
My name is Jeff Davidson, and I am the new CEO of ATP. I am writing to
provide an update on our activities, our future and the availability of
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->our
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">products.
Many of you are likely wondering what ATP has been doing the past several
months and years. In short, we've been preparing ourselves, in a number
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->of
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ways, to manufacture, market, distribute and support turbine engines for
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->the
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">experimental market. We have been at work building a business team,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->raising
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">money, finalizing patent applications and production requirements and
developing a great and innovative product more fully. Rather than come to
market with an incomplete product or plan, when we launch, we will be
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->fully
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">prepared to fill orders and support our customers. In short, we've been
working out the challenges and difficulties of this business, so that our
customers are well taken care of.
We will be selling two engines initially - one in the range of 150-200 hp;
another in the range of 200-250 hp. We are pleased to confirm that
customers will be able to order ATP engines at the 2004 AirVenture /
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->Oshkosh
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Air Show, and the first engines will be delivered within 60 days of order.
As additional technical information is finalized, we will share this
information with you here and on our website. We further anticipate that
both of these engines will be sold in the range of $30,000 to $40,000. In
addition, depending upon your current configuration, additional
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->investments
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">may be required in the firewall-forward.
As you know our engines will offer several significant advantages:
- Reliable with a 10,000 hour time between overhaul (TBO)
- Low maintenance - with few moving parts
- High Performance - with a very high power to weight ratio and
very effective performance at altitude
- Little reason to throttle to 55% to "save the engine"
- Pilot Friendly - Easy to control and operate with the engine
computer doing the hard work
- Fuel Efficient and Fuel Versatile - Capable of burning nearly
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->any
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">fuel - Gasoline, Diesel, Kerosene, JP-series efficiently
Within the next few months, we will have far more detailed flight and
operational characteristics available as we gain flight time on additional
aircraft beyond the RV-4. We look forward to keeping all of you updated
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->on
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">our progress in this regard. I am confident that this information will
answer this forum's questions on the performance characteristics on the
engine. We are convinced that the ultimate characteristics and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->performance
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of the engine will speak for itself; however, we are in the process of
confirming all of our test results. Much like we will not go to market
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->with
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">an incomplete product, the test data that we share must be of the highest
quality and not marketing hype - we respectfully ask your indulgence as we
conduct additional tests and validate this data.
We have partnered with Rivers Aeronautical to provide the firewall-forward
kits to the experimental aircraft market. Rivers and ATP will have
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->several
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of the most popular kits available for purchase at Oshkosh, with plans to
quickly offer kits for a broad array of kit aircraft.
These firewall forward kits will require the buyer to install a new engine
mount if replacing a current engine or to use a Rivers Aeronautical
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->firewall
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">forward kit if doing a new build. Due to our engine's considerably lower
weight, as compared to internal combustion, reciprocating engines, the
turbine will be moved slightly forward (averaging about 10 to 12 inches)
from the firewall to keep the center of mass in its proper location. With
this new mount, the aircraft will also need a new cowling. Finally, a
variable pitch in-flight adjustable electrical propeller is currently
required. This is required because the engine must start in a a no-load
condition. The details on the kit are still being hammered out; however,
this kit will cost approximately 10,000 to $12,000, and a propeller will
cost an additional $5,000 to $10,000. In short, with the purchase of the
engine, the propeller and the firewall-forward kit the buyer is fully
prepared to install our engine - we don't expect any hidden costs of any
sort.
Going forward, we are very excited about our ability to deliver these
products to the experimental market. We are confident that our product
brings a host of advantages to the kit builder and pilot and we look
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->forward
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to sharing more information with you in the coming months. In the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->meantime,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">please bear with us as we prepare to hit the ground running in July.
Between now and then, expect a number of changes with respect to our
presence in the market and our ability to share information with you.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->We're
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">confident that the team we've assembled, in conjunction with ATP's
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->founders
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">- Charlie and Chuck Nearhoof - will exceed your expectations.
Again, thanks for your interest - and we look forward to delivering a
practical, sensible turbine engine to you.
Best wishes,
Jeff Davidson
Chief Executive Officer
ATP
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->--
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">----
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATP1/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATP1/</a>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ATP1-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com">ATP1-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!----><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector">http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Visit the gallery! <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.tvbf.org/gallery">www.tvbf.org/gallery</a>
user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check new archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.tvbf.org/pipermail">www.tvbf.org/pipermail</a>
Check old archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html">http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector">http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</a>
Visit the gallery! <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.tvbf.org/gallery">www.tvbf.org/gallery</a>
user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check new archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.tvbf.org/pipermail">www.tvbf.org/pipermail</a>
Check old archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html">http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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