REFLECTOR:Re: NPG+
Chuck Jensen
reflector@tvbf.org
Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:12:48 -0400
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John,
I can't pass up an opportunity to show my ignorance (and there are many!),
but I thought the reason for keeping the water coolant under pressure was so
it would not boil against the cylinder jacket. As we know, water has a
higher boiling point under pressure, so the few psig of the sealed coolant
system keeps the water from boiling when it hits the hot engine components.
When we take the cap off...every so carefully...that relieves the pressure
and the hot water near-instantly boils; spitting like a cobra into the face
of the unwary.
The NPG+ article talks about how it won't "boil" and leave a layer of steam
against the hot metal. Steam is actually quite a good insulator so the
engine metal will get even hotter if a layer of steam is present. NPG+
says, since their solution won't boil, there will never been a steam layer
that thermally insulates the engine metal and thus the heat will be
conducted away more efficiently; reducing the potential for
knock/predetonation.
I got lost in the issue about the engine running hotter with NPG+. Unless
they mean the whole engine can run hotter while critical components are kept
cooler, which will reduce the potential for mechanical damage from
predetonation while enjoying the ever so slight improvement of a hotter
engine? Measuring such gains probably falls in the realm of the new
"Nanotechnology."
With all that said, some of their claims leave me thinking about the 'ole
West Medicine Wagon and their medicinal potions. When the claims start
filling up a half-page, I start thinking about half-truths.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of
aminetech@bluefrog.com
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:39 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: NPG+
This is news to me. My only agument to the documented success is that it
seems contrary to principals of engine cooling. The conventional
water/antifreeze mix boils in the cylinder jacket and boiling is the most
efficient means of heat transfer which means it will keep your engine the
coolest. They admit that with NPG+ the engine runs hotter, but claim that
is a good thing for better efficiency. It is true that the hotter the
engine the more thermodynamically efficient it will run, but it won't run
long if the temperature is too high. Us with air cooled engines don't seem
to be looking for ways to increase our engine temps. I suggest you record
your CHT/EGT temps wtih the distilled water and compare with NPG+. If
you're comfortable with the higher temps using NPG+, then I guess it will be
ok. Eliminating boil-over is a detriment rather than an asset IMO. With a
conventional coolant if you lose coolant circulation, it boils over.
However as long as it is boiling over, you still have cooling and time to
prepare to shutdown before your engine overheats. With the NPG+, I think
overheating would happen immediately upon loss of coolant circulation.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: NMFlyer1@aol.com <mailto:NMFlyer1@aol.com>
To: reflector@tvbf.org <mailto:reflector@tvbf.org>
Cc: dmartin@cougar.netutah.net <mailto:dmartin@cougar.netutah.net> ;
ALVentures@cox.net <mailto:ALVentures@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Velocity Manuals, Methods & Views
Greetings,
I wanted to get the information on a product I plan on using to all the
liquid cooled engine experimentors. Specifically the NPG+ is of interest.
I know that it seems to work well in race applications and should add the
little extra benefit that our hard run engines may need.
I plan on firing up my Chevy V-6 in about 4-6 weeks and will use distilled
water to ensure I have no leaks. Then I will flush the system and put in the
NPG+.
Evans Cooling <http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html> Systems, Inc. High
Performance Engine Cooling and Power Production.
Let me know what you think, and I hope it helps.
Kurt Winker
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<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004>John,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004>I can't pass up an opportunity to show my
ignorance (and there are many!), but I thought the reason for keeping the water
coolant under pressure was so it would not boil against the cylinder
jacket. As we know, water has a higher boiling point under pressure, so
the few psig of the sealed coolant system keeps the water from boiling when it
hits the hot engine components. When we take the cap off...every so
carefully...that relieves the pressure and the hot water near-instantly boils;
spitting like a cobra into the face of the unwary. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004>The NPG+ article talks about how it won't
"boil" and leave a layer of steam against the hot metal. Steam is actually
quite a good insulator so the engine metal will get even hotter if a layer of
steam is present. NPG+ says, since their solution won't boil, there will
never been a steam layer that thermally insulates the engine metal and thus the
heat will be conducted away more efficiently; reducing the potential for
knock/predetonation.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004>I got lost in the issue about the engine
running hotter with NPG+. Unless they mean the whole engine can run hotter
while critical components are kept cooler, which will reduce the potential
for mechanical damage from predetonation while enjoying the ever so slight
improvement of a hotter engine? Measuring such gains probably falls in the
realm of the new "Nanotechnology."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004>With all that said, some of their claims
leave me thinking about the 'ole West Medicine Wagon and their medicinal
potions. When the claims start filling up a half-page, I start
thinking about half-truths.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=031475220-18042004>Chuck</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>aminetech@bluefrog.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:39
PM<BR><B>To:</B> reflector@tvbf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> REFLECTOR:Re:
NPG+<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>This is news to me. My only agument to the documented success is
that it seems contrary to principals of engine cooling. The conventional
water/antifreeze mix boils in the cylinder jacket and boiling is the most
efficient means of heat transfer which means it will keep your engine the
coolest. They admit that with NPG+ the engine runs hotter, but claim
that is a good thing for better efficiency. It is true that the hotter
the engine the more thermodynamically efficient it will run, but it won't run
long if the temperature is too high. Us with air cooled engines don't
seem to be looking for ways to increase our engine temps. I suggest you
record your CHT/EGT temps wtih the distilled water and compare with
NPG+. If you're comfortable with the higher temps using NPG+, then
I guess it will be ok. Eliminating boil-over is a detriment rather than
an asset IMO. With a conventional coolant if you lose coolant
circulation, it boils over. However as long as it is boiling over, you
still have cooling and time to prepare to shutdown before your engine
overheats. With the NPG+, I think overheating would happen immediately
upon loss of coolant circulation.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=NMFlyer1@aol.com
href="mailto:NMFlyer1@aol.com">NMFlyer1@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=reflector@tvbf.org
href="mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=dmartin@cougar.netutah.net
href="mailto:dmartin@cougar.netutah.net">dmartin@cougar.netutah.net</A> ; <A
title=ALVentures@cox.net
href="mailto:ALVentures@cox.net">ALVentures@cox.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: REFLECTOR:Velocity
Manuals, Methods & Views</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Greetings, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> I wanted to get the information on a product I plan on using to
all the liquid cooled engine experimentors. Specifically the NPG+ is
of interest. I know that it seems to work well in race applications
and should add the little extra benefit that our hard run engines may need.
</DIV>
<DIV>I plan on firing up my Chevy V-6 in about 4-6 weeks and will use
distilled water to ensure I have no leaks. Then I will flush the system and
put in the NPG+. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html">Evans Cooling
Systems, Inc. High Performance Engine Cooling and Power
Production.</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me know what you think, and I hope it helps. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kurt Winker</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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