REFLECTOR: Need for speed

Tue May 21 12:51:53 CDT 2013

I agree with the comments from Brian.  However, out of curiosity, anybody looked at the new electric supercharger designs coming out recently?  Not the Ebay scams that have been around for years but the new stuff such as the one being brought to market in the 2014 BMW M3.  It has the potential to achieve the power boost that people want, can eliminate the wastegate issue via electric control of boost pressure, is a "simple" installation and lightweight (around 13 lbs.)

Luis

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Need for speed (Doug Kanczuzewski)
   2. Re:  Need for speed (nmflyer1 at aol.com)
   3. Re:  Need for speed (Brian Michalk)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 15:57:21 +0000
From: Doug Kanczuzewski <doug at customstudio.com>
To: "geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com" <geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com>, "Velocity
	Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Need for speed
Message-ID:
	<1965FCEAF15F5244BE6BA2516824A98A516E74F3 at fnf-ex-1.saxton.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would think you are heading more to the super charger if you are already working out the new exhaust layout, otherwise with turbocharging that is also going to dictate how your exhaust is run. Or am I missing something on your exhaust design?
You can also get into lighter weight automotive turbos for less money.

Doug K

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:46 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: REFLECTOR: Need for speed

Guys,

Ok, in my pursuit for more speed, I have narrowed down on two mods.  Definitely will be changing my exhaust - I'm working with Clinton at Custom Aircraft on this.  He is quoting some pretty big numbers (+18HP) for switching from the standard Velo exhaust (2x2-1) where each cylinder is battling the other to a 4-4, we'll see.  I am looking forward to better cooling as I won't be adding pressure to the lower cowl with the exhaust hole cutouts (pretty big on mine), and exhausting out the cowl will create a lower cowl pressure to draw cooling air out.

Now, for the big speed increase, turbo or supercharging (normalization).  I'm exploring a couple options there.  There's a guy close by who has a complete RaJay turbo normalization system for an IO-360 off a Mooney.  Its been rebuilt.  He says its a very simple system, manual wastegate. I still haven't got a price from him, tho, and I expect it will be $20K+, tho.  The other option is supercharging.  I talked to the guy from Forced Aeromotive<http://www.forcedaeromotive.com/homebuilt.htm> yesterday.  Their system sounds pretty bulletproof and simple and provides 8000' of TN.  That is, at 8000', you still have 30", flying at 10,000' would be like flying at 2000' without it - you get the idea.  It has no wastegate, the manifold pressure has a redline of 30" that you're not supposed to exceed, so at a low elevation field, you would not take off with full throttle, just advance it to 30".  As you climb, just keep nudging it up to maintain 30".  It is a nice, simple install and c!
 osts ~$10K.  Apparently, you can climb like a bastard with it, and can expect >15kts increase at cruise.  I'm leaning more towards it than the turbo.  The one big advantage to the supercharger is that it has a pretty cool air charge (unlike the turbo that, even with an intercooler, the air produced is hot).

Any thoughts?  Anyone had experience with turbo/supercharging an IO-360?

Geoff

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 12:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: nmflyer1 at aol.com
To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com, reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Need for speed
Message-ID: <8D0245A24F193F2-AD0-4A09E at webmail-m142.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Might be interesting to see what 15.5 pounds in that location will do to your W & B. Seems like it will require some adjustments up front. 

Kurt

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Gerhardt <geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Tue, May 21, 2013 8:29 am
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Need for speed

You guys would be surprised how simple the Forced Aeromotive supercharger is.  The turbine is run off a belt (a modified starter ring drive is supplied that can drive both a alternator and the supercharger).  Intake air is scat ducted into the SC, compressed air is ducted to the fuel servo.  Boost is managed by throttle position - a redline MAP of 30" is used, the throttle is used to manage this.  As far as heating goes, while there is some heat generated by the compression of the air, this is relatively minimal compared to the heat generated by a turbo that experience the exhaust gas heat.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com> wrote:

Geoff,
I second Richard's comments and add that TN, TC and SC significantly increases the complexity of an aircraft. The main point being Richard's, are your hops long distance enough to gain the efficiency at altitude, and are you willing to be on O2 while at altitude. Finally google aircraft turbocharger charge air cooling. Volumes have been written on this special topic. Superchargers as well heat the charge air, not quite as much yet still an issue. 

Mark B. Magee
N34XL

Sent from IPhone 4S

Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love. 1COR 16:13-14

On May 21, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Geoff Gerhardt <geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Ok, in my pursuit for more speed, I have narrowed down on two mods.  Definitely will be changing my exhaust - I'm working with Clinton at Custom Aircraft on this.  He is quoting some pretty big numbers (+18HP) for switching from the standard Velo exhaust (2x2-1) where each cylinder is battling the other to a 4-4, we'll see.  I am looking forward to better cooling as I won't be adding pressure to the lower cowl with the exhaust hole cutouts (pretty big on mine), and exhausting out the cowl will create a lower cowl pressure to draw cooling air out.

Now, for the big speed increase, turbo or supercharging (normalization).  I'm exploring a couple options there.  There's a guy close by who has a complete RaJay turbo normalization system for an IO-360 off a Mooney.  Its been rebuilt.  He says its a very simple system, manual wastegate. I still haven't got a price from him, tho, and I expect it will be $20K+, tho.  The other option is supercharging.  I talked to the guy from Forced Aeromotive yesterday.  Their system sounds pretty bulletproof and simple and provides 8000' of TN.  That is, at 8000', you still have 30", flying at 10,000' would be like flying at 2000' without it - you get the idea.  It has no wastegate, the manifold pressure has a redline of 30" that you're not supposed to exceed, so at a low elevation field, you would not take off with full throttle, just advance it to 30".  As you climb, just keep nudging it up to maintain 30".  It is a nice, simple install and costs ~$10K.  Apparently, you can climb like a b!
 astard with it, and can expect >15kts increase at cruise.  I'm leaning more towards it than the turbo.  The one big advantage to the supercharger is that it has a pretty cool air charge (unlike the turbo that, even with an intercooler, the air produced is hot).

Any thoughts?  Anyone had experience with turbo/supercharging an IO-360?

Geoff

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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:58:34 -0500
From: Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com>
To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com, Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
	list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Need for speed
Message-ID: <519BA7BA.9080901 at awpi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

I have a turbo on my Franklin, and expect someday to reduce my 
compression ratio from the current 10.5 down to about 8.

What others have said about the differences between turbos and 
superchargers is true.

I designed and built my entire system, and that is not a simple thing.  
The plumbing required is difficult to figure out, but if you can go off 
the shelf, then go that way.  The complexity I had to deal with was the 
exhaust plumbing, scavenge pump and cowl temps.  My wastegate is manual, 
and it looks like a simple throttle body except built to withstand the 
high temps.  It's pretty simple, but does add another knob to the panel 
that must be managed.  I received all of the parts from a Piper Seneca, 
which included the controller and all of the other bits to make it 
automatic.  There's a LOT of parts to make it automatic.

If I were to do it all over again, and I'm not sure I would, I would 
choose a solid off the shelf automotive turbo.  Learn how to read a 
compressor map.  That goes for superchargers too.  There's no need to go 
aviation here, and you can get ceramic, ball bearing, or even water 
cooled technology.  The bonus is that you should be able to get what you 
need for about $2,000.

Supercharger vs turbocharger:

The turbo will be more efficient.  It is heat driven to a large degree, 
with temperature drops across the turbine of around 300F. There is a 
penalty in back pressure, so it's not a free lunch. Compressing air is 
compressing air.  It doesn't matter how its done, it takes power to do 
it.  To get 8PSI of boost can require in the neighborhood of 20 HP.  
It's either coming off the supercharger belt, or out of the exhaust.

There will be heat transmitted from the turbine wheel to the compressor 
wheel.  I'm not sure how much heat is transmitted this way into the 
intake air, which should be as cool as possible.  All compressed air 
will heat up.  First due to compression.  PV=nRT here.  The air will 
also heat up due to the inefficiency of the compression process.  A 50% 
efficient compression cycle will put that extra 50% of energy into the 
compressed air.

With the supercharger, it's direct drive, unless there's some new tech 
I'm not aware of.  At higher RPM's the blow off valve may be releasing 
pressure in order to maintain a limit on the MAP. However, there's no 
exhaust tubing to contend with, and the cowl temperatures will be lower.

On 5/21/2013 6:46 AM, Geoff Gerhardt wrote:
> Guys,
>
> Ok, in my pursuit for more speed, I have narrowed down on two mods. 
>  Definitely will be changing my exhaust - I'm working with Clinton at 
> Custom Aircraft on this.  He is quoting some pretty big numbers 
> (+18HP) for switching from the standard Velo exhaust (2x2-1) where 
> each cylinder is battling the other to a 4-4, we'll see.  I am looking 
> forward to better cooling as I won't be adding pressure to the lower 
> cowl with the exhaust hole cutouts (pretty big on mine), and 
> exhausting out the cowl will create a lower cowl pressure to draw 
> cooling air out.
>
> Now, for the big speed increase, turbo or supercharging 
> (normalization).  I'm exploring a couple options there.  There's a guy 
> close by who has a complete RaJay turbo normalization system for an 
> IO-360 off a Mooney.  Its been rebuilt.  He says its a very simple 
> system, manual wastegate. I still haven't got a price from him, tho, 
> and I expect it will be $20K+, tho.  The other option is 
> supercharging.  I talked to the guy from Forced Aeromotive 
> <http://www.forcedaeromotive.com/homebuilt.htm> yesterday.  Their 
> system sounds pretty bulletproof and simple and provides 8000' of TN. 
>  That is, at 8000', you still have 30", flying at 10,000' would be 
> like flying at 2000' without it - you get the idea.  It has no 
> wastegate, the manifold pressure has a redline of 30" that you're not 
> supposed to exceed, so at a low elevation field, you would not take 
> off with full throttle, just advance it to 30".  As you climb, just 
> keep nudging it up to maintain 30".  It is a nice, simple install and 
> costs ~$10K.  Apparently, you can climb like a bastard with it, and 
> can expect >15kts increase at cruise.  I'm leaning more towards it 
> than the turbo.  The one big advantage to the supercharger is that it 
> has a pretty cool air charge (unlike the turbo that, even with an 
> intercooler, the air produced is hot).
>
> Any thoughts?  Anyone had experience with turbo/supercharging an IO-360?
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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