REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 99, Issue 82
Mark Riley
the_rileys1 at verizon.net
Tue Jun 25 09:56:38 CDT 2013
My apologies to Reiff. Apparently I misunderstood the status of this year's cookout planning. I am willing to help out as I'm sure others are. Whatever we are doing, we need to get started as we are only a month out. I really enjoy the cookout and keep it on my "must do" list for Oshkosh. It has become a nice tradition.
Again, I will help out with whatever format we end up with.
Mark
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2013, at 8:51 AM, reflector-request at tvbf.org wrote:
> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
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>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft
> searches: Customs Pilot Perspective (Mark Magee)
> 2. Re: Reflector Digest, Annual Velocity Cookout Head Count
> (Tim Rhodenbaugh)
> 3. Re: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft
> searches: Customs Pilot Perspective (Scott Baker)
> 4. Re: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft
> searches: Customs Pilot Perspective (Richard J. Gentil)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:31:00 -0500
> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
> To: sbjknox <sbjknox at earthlink.net>, Velocity Aircraft Owners and
> Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on
> aircraft searches: Customs Pilot Perspective
> Message-ID: <12FDE6A0-AF6B-4F66-A39C-87167D6BBCC2 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> He has gotten his B37 type rating...
> Years ago he told me he really loved his flying job at Customs.
>
> Mark B. Magee
> N34XL
> Sent from IPhone 4S
>
> 1COR 16:13-14
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 10:24 PM, "sbjknox" <sbjknox at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> from NAME DELETED's message :
>> " The topic probably would be better served if we could sit down and chat."
>>
>> My translation: "I could tell you about policies and stuff happening that I do not want my name associated with in writing"
>>
>> $0.02
>>
>> Sid Knox
>> Oklahoma
>>
>> Velocity 173 RG N199RS
>> Starduster N666SK
>> KR2 N24TC
>> W7QJQ
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:06:38 -0400
> From: Tim Rhodenbaugh <timrhod at aol.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Cc: "reflector at tvbf.org" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Annual Velocity Cookout Head
> Count
> Message-ID: <1675981B-3AA9-4625-8A26-C62C64FE200E at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Tim and Lura Beth Rhodenbaugh will attend the cookout at Oshkosh
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 8:35 PM, Mark Riley <the_rileys1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Reiff Lorenz has stepped up to take charge of organizing this year's Velocity Cookout at Oshkosh. I understand that it will take place as usual on Wednesday evening at 10th and Elm in Camp Scholler. We need to help Reiff out to provide a head count of who will be attending. In addition, if anyone can volunteer to help set up, cook, shop, bring food, etc. let's inform Reiff. He will need the help.
>>
>> I have started a thread on this topic on the new Velocity Owner's and Builder's forum. That would be a good place to advise how many you are bringing to the cookout. If you are not a member, you could also advise him via the Reflector.
>>
>> If you've been before, you know what a great time it is to catch up with old friends and make new ones. If you haven't been yet, make this your first!
>>
>> To start things off, I will be attending with my family of four.
>>
>> Spread the word and sound off with how many you will be bringing.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Mark
>> On Jun 24, 2013, at 3:59 PM, reflector-request at tvbf.org wrote:
>>
>>> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: High Oil Temps (Scott Derrick)
>>> 2. Re: High Oil Temps (John Dibble)
>>> 3. Re: High Oil Temps (steve korney)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 12:28:51 -0600
>>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>>> To: Brent Bourgeois <bjb3013 at yahoo.com>, Velocity Aircraft Owners and
>>> Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: High Oil Temps
>>> Message-ID: <51C88FE3.2090804 at tnstaafl.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 13:38:20 -0500
>>> From: John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com>
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: High Oil Temps
>>> Message-ID: <51C8921C.7050709 at bluefrog.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>> What side is that?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On 6/24/2013 1:08 PM, steve korney wrote:
>>>> If you vent into the low pressure side it's OK...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 12:57:51 -0500
>>>> From: michalk at awpi.com
>>>> To: bjb3013 at yahoo.com; reflector at tvbf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: High Oil Temps
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if you just vented into the engine compartment?
>>>>
>>>> On 6/24/2013 9:52 AM, Brent Bourgeois wrote:
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 19:58:23 +0000
>>> From: steve korney <s_korney at hotmail.com>
>>> To: Reflector Reflector <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: High Oil Temps
>>> Message-ID: <BAY178-W17E7F07CD6D0F06AF874E0E78A0 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> The low pressure side the air leaves the cowl out the back...
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 13:38:20 -0500
>>> From: aminetech at bluefrog.com
>>> To: reflector at tvbf.org
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: High Oil Temps
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What side is that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/24/2013 1:08 PM, steve korney wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If
>>> you vent into the low pressure side it's OK...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 12:57:51 -0500
>>>
>>> From: michalk at awpi.com
>>>
>>> To: bjb3013 at yahoo.com; reflector at tvbf.org
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: High Oil Temps
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What would happen if you just
>>> vented into the engine compartment?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/24/2013 9:52 AM, Brent Bourgeois wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>
>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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>>>
>>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 99, Issue 77
>>> *****************************************
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 07:43:40 -0400
> From: Scott Baker <scottb33333 at gmail.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on
> aircraft searches: Customs Pilot Perspective
> Message-ID: <51C9826C.5020102 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> On 6/24/2013 11:07 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
>> Mark,
>> All is well. I'm in the process of making al my FAA paperwork right
>> for the airlines. I just finished my 737 type rating and finally
>> picked up my ATP.
>> As far as the ramp check stuff, I really don't have too much insight.
>> The topic probably would be better served if we could sit down and
>> chat. The biggest concern is ensuring that 4th amendment rights are
>> not infringed upon, and balancing that with law enforcement. There is
>> a constant flow of drugs moving from the west coast and we are having
>> a fair amount of luck intercepting it. The problem arises when we
>> talk with a law abiding general aviator who does NOT care for the
>> government (and Texas is loaded with the Anti-govt type), and they do
>> not care to try to understand the battle we are in. It is a VERY thin
>> line, and a line that sometimes is wrongfully crossed. Bottom line,
>> if you don't want someone to look at your plane, you have the right to
>> say no. Law Enforcement Officials have the job of developing both
>> reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Once that is developed,
>> there are a whole different set of rules that apply. _With that being
>> said, understand that flying is a privilege, and if you are witnessed
>> exercising that privilege, LEO's (any city, state, federal) have the
>> right/obligation to verify that you are properly certified_ to operate
>> the aircraft, and that the aircraft is properly registered with the
>> FAA (standard ramp check stuff). The guys in the office constantly go
>> round and round since many of us exercise our general aviation
>> privileges as well (perfect time to interject the fact that I bought a
>> DELETED last year). If you are approached on the ramp, be prepared to
>> show your FAA docs and medical certificate. If they ask to look at
>> your airplane and you just don't feel like playing nice, say no. Your
>> freedom of movement should not be hindered if reasonable suspicion has
>> yet to be determined. Disclaimer..... It's a thin line that the LEO
>> walks. We all have our individual threshold for reasonable suspicion
>> (with very little guidance....by design). Probable cause, on the
>> other hand, is fairly well established by various case laws (typically
>> when judges start issuing warrants). If RS/PC is established, the LEO
>> can then continue with their "investigative detention" (restrict
>> movement etc.) to satisfy their concerns. RS is NOT enough to force
>> their way into your personal property, but PC is (a dog that alerts
>> satisfies PC by case law). This rabbit hole continues on and on. It
>> is fantastic hangar talk that I would be happy to participate in (in
>> uniform or not). I hope this helps. Keep in touch and let me know if
>> you need anymore info (or different explanation).
>>
>> NAME DELETED
>
> "... LEO's have the right/obligation to verify that you are properly
> certified"
>
> Say again?! What kind of logic is that? Who among us does not take
> exception to this kind of thinking, i.e. 'guilty until proven innocent'?
> The actions and tactics use by law enforcement - as expressed in recent
> headlines - is just wrong and is also a major (in a big way) waste of
> money and law enforcement resources.
> I have had the 'pleasure' of interacting with local police, sheriff's
> department, fire department, FAA FSDO, and NTSB types at Sebastian (FL)
> airport.
> Eight out of Ten were judged in my opinion as being arrogant, power
> wielding, unintelligent regarding the topic at hand, and more concerned
> about their appearing to be 'in control' of things than in making good
> common sense observations and decisions. As an exception to the rule, I
> give credit to the FBI as being professional, courteous, and only
> organization in the bunch that really knows what the _ell they were doing.
>
> When similar and incredibly stupid actions are added to the mix by local
> law enforcement officers - it is easy to adopt a disdainful
> guilt-by-association attitude towards every 'public servant' who wears a
> uniform - especially those who wear a badge and gun.
> From where I stand, these agencies have earned their reputation, and I
> believe are too arrogant to understand that the people they 'serve' do
> not like it.
> Federal (TSA, CBP, more) and local law enforcement have a long way to go
> to regain the trust they have lost to law abiding American citizens.
> The question is, "Do they care?"
>
> Stepping off soap box now.
> Scott B
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 08:49:12 -0400
> From: "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on
> aircraft searches: Customs Pilot Perspective
> Message-ID:
> <041EB06A-A26D-4398-BD9E-907E865AE1F3 at naples-air-center.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The only question I have on this subject is AK-47's. I did not think that our government used them.
>
> Richard
>
> PS I do keep an AK-47 personally. Fantastic weapon.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 11:28 PM, Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:
>
>> The CBP have visited the Grants Airport, a few times, In their Blackhawk's with mounted guns, they were all dressed like storm troopers, all black, AK47's and machine guns, Demanding ID's, access to airplane interiors, hangers, etc... One making the demands two behind him and off too the side with guns drawn.
>>
>> Oh, yeah, we are a pit of terrorists here at KGNT!
>>
>> I'm not making this up, it happened and will happen again until we as a people wise up and realize you can't trade freedom for security.
>>
>> Cowards covet security, the Brave demand Freedom and are willing to pay for it.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> OK, I'm off my soapbox on this one!
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft searches: Customs Pilot Perspective
>> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Date: 06/24/2013 09:07 PM
>>> Scott,
>>> This guy flies a 206 and a Falconjet for Customs. I don't think his unit has any Blackhawks, they have some Hughes 500's. I know they don't have any AK's or Uzi's. He carries an M-4 and .45.
>>> He's a great guy, doing his job, and I believe gave a good description of the issue.
>>> I'll 'chat' with him later, see if anything else.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark B. Magee
>>> N34XL
>>> Sent from IPhone 4S
>>>
>>> 1COR 16:13-14
>>>
>>> On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:50 PM, Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While some of this "sounds" reasonable, this guy obviously is drinking the kool-aid and is completely ignoring the tactics being used.
>>>>
>>>> Black hawk helicopters, guys with AK47's, machine guns, Oozies, etc.. Total Gestapo/Nazi style intimidation. Stalin would be proud.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft searches: Customs Pilot Perspective
>>>> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Date: 06/24/2013 08:37 PM
>>>>> All,
>>>>> Here is my buddy, the Customs pilot's response to my request for insight on the increasing ramp checks. It is redacted to keep my friend anonymous: he does work for 'The Man'...
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark,
>>>>> All is well. I'm in the process of making al my FAA paperwork right for the airlines. I just finished my 737 type rating and finally picked up my ATP.
>>>>> As far as the ramp check stuff, I really don't have too much insight. The topic probably would be better served if we could sit down and chat. The biggest concern is ensuring that 4th amendment rights are not infringed upon, and balancing that with law enforcement. There is a constant flow of drugs moving from the west coast and we are having a fair amount of luck intercepting it. The problem arises when we talk with a law abiding general aviator who does NOT care for the government (and Texas is loaded with the Anti-govt type), and they do not care to try to understand the battle we are in. It is a VERY thin line, and a line that sometimes is wrongfully crossed. Bottom line, if you don't want someone to look at your plane, you have the right to say no. Law Enforcement Officials have the job of developing both reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Once that is developed, there are a whole different set of rules that apply. With that bein!
> g said, understand that flying is a privilege, and if you are witnessed exercising that privilege, LEO's (any city, state, federal) have the right/obligation to verify that you are properly certified to operate the aircraft, and that the aircraft is properly registered with the FAA (standard ramp check stuff). The guys in the office constantly go round and round since many of us exercise our general aviation privileges as well (perfect time to interject the fact that I bought a DELETED last year). If you are approached on the ramp, be prepared to show your FAA docs and medical certificate. If they ask to look at your airplane and you just don't feel like playing nice, say no. Your freedom of movement should not be hindered if reasonable suspicion has yet to be determined. Disclaimer..... It's a thin line that the LEO walks. We all have our individual threshold for reasonable suspicion (with very little guidance....by design). Probable cause, on the other hand, is fai!
> rly well established by various case laws (typically when judges start issuing warrants). If RS/PC is established, the LEO can then continue with their "investigative detention" (restrict movement etc.) to satisfy their concerns. RS is NOT enough to force their way into your personal property, but PC is (a dog that alerts satisfies PC by case law). This rabbit hole continues on and on. It is fantastic hangar talk that I would be happy to participate in (in uniform or not). I hope this helps. Keep in touch and let me know if you need anymore info (or different explanation).
>>>>>
>>>>> NAME DELETED
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com>
>>>>>>> Date: June 19, 2013, 7:52:19 PM CDT
>>>>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fwd: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft searches
>>>>>>> Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just finished reading it about 30 minutes ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really curious why they are making so may searches.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know when CBP see a Velocity they have no idea what they are looking at. Makes them even more curious about it. I have had them with density and radiation meters checking my bird before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They seem to think it is some sort of aerial drone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Kevin Baker <flykb at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FYI
>>>>>>>> Received this email from aopa tonight
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thought folks might be intetested
>>>>>>>> Kevin Baker
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: AOPA_EPILOT at AOPA.ORG
>>>>>>>>> Date: June 19, 2013, 5:01:52 PM CDT
>>>>>>>>> To: FLYKB at VERIZON.NET
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Special Report: AOPA demands answers on aircraft searches
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Comments? E-mail pilotassist at aopa.org, call 800/USA-AOPA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> June 19, 2013
>>>>>>>>> FIGHTING FOR PILOTS? RIGHTS
>>>>>>>>> AOPA demands answers on aircraft searches
>>>>>>>>> With a growing number of reports from law-abiding pilots stopped by armed federal agents on the ramp, their aircraft searched by federal agents, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection (CBP) remains silent, and outrage is building. AOPA is questioning CBP?s authority to conduct the searches, and demanding a response from officials at the highest level. There has been no meaningful response to date from CBP to Freedom of Information Act requests filed months ago by AOPA and affected pilots.
>>>>>>>>> ?We don?t even know why they?re being stopped,? said AOPA General Counsel Ken Mead, adding that the association will press the issue until satisfactory answers?or a change in policy?are forthcoming. ?We?re not going to let this go with just lip service. The agency either has to stop its behavior or we?re going to need to elevate it to Congress.? Read the full story >>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What to do if stopped by law enforcement
>>>>>>>>> AOPA is still researching the legal specifics involved when federal agents, particularly CBP agents acting well inside the nation?s borders, detain a pilot and search an aircraft. As the association works to gain a fuller understanding of what is permitted, a convenient kneeboard reference card has been prepared for pilots who might find themselves the object of the agency?s attention. This step-by-step guide includes general procedures to follow when subjected to detention and search. Always be courteous and respectful, and remain calm. Answer questions truthfully, but succinctly. Do not volunteer information. Download the kneeboard reference card >>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>>>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>>>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love. 1COR 16:13-14
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
>>>> Eleanor Roosevelt
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>
>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>
>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>> --
>> No pessimist ever discovered the secret of the stars or sailed an uncharted land, or opened a new doorway for the human spirit.
>> Helen Keller
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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>
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