REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 95, Issue 43
David Ullman
ullman at robustdecisions.com
Sat Feb 23 18:51:05 CST 2013
Thanks for all the words. Rather than BonAmi, other locals suggested Mouse
Milk which is a penetrating oil, much like WD-40 as best I can tell. ( I
don't think it has any grit in it, just a lot of solvents. I need to do
more checking.. Not thrilled with putting a grit in the system as there are
many other places I don't want it (e.g. oil pumps, lifters and cam).
My oil temps are fine, my compression is OK. One other piece of evidence
that the rings are not well seated is that if I put 60psi into a cylinder at
the plug, I can feel a breeze at the breather tube. Also, the breather does
wet the bottom of the plane. I have tried different configurations for the
breather and have a simple separator in it. I am, on one hand, encouraged
to hear that others have a similar problem with the C1C. On the other I
don't like spraying oil over the country side. At least it isn't very
expensive.
As for the pull to the left, I will double check the tire air pressure, but
I think it OK. I believe I fly at a slight crab and need to double check
this. If I do, and it is in the same sense as the pull on take-off, then I
clearly need to shim the engine.
Thanks again for the words.
David Ullman
N444DX
President EAA 292
541-754-3609
david at davidullman.com
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:58 PM
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Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 95, Issue 43
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Oil, P-factor and othe things (Tom Cacek)
2. Re: Oil, P-factor and other things (Laurence Coen)
3. Re: Oil, P-factor and othe things (Andrew Judge)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 14:42:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Cacek <hytec45 at aol.com>
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Oil, P-factor and othe things
Message-ID: <8CFE015004AF028-1590-64A76 at webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have over 800 hrs on my IO360C1C and have been fighting the same oil
consumption issue since new. 2hrs per quart. I re-honed the cylinders
(twice) new pistons and rings with no difference. After about 500 hrs.
(With nothing else to spend money on) I went so far as to install new
cylinders, nitrited w/chrome rings (best low oil consumption
combination),followed break-in to the "T",with the same results, 2hrs per
quart. Tried all different oil levels, oil separators. My engine has the
oil nozzles in the main bearing bolsters that point into the cylinders to
spray oil on the piston base. I think that these nozzles flood the cylinder
wall, and the oil ring doesn't get it all. I have never had any signs of
any oil on prop, or leakage, and my exhaust has always been a light ash
color. I have been told I can remove the nozzles, but since my cylinder and
oil temps are great, I decided not to.
I will be interested to see what this thread can provide.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----From: David Ullman <ullman at robustdecisions.com>To:
reflector <reflector at tvbf.org>Sent: Sat, Feb 23, 2013 04:45 AMSubject:
REFLECTOR: Oil, P-factor and othe thingsI now have 80+ hours on my SEFG.
Still have a 50' paint job and theinterior isn't finished. When we first
started flying we had handlingproblems and so the IO-360 C1C never got
broken in correctly as we couldn'tdo full power at first. Thus, the rings
are not seated so I use oil, a lotof oil - a quart a tank (maybe I have a
2-cycle engine). I am thinking ofpulling the cylinders, honing and
reringing. Any thoughts?On take off my plane pulls to the left enough that
I have to tap the rightbrake. It is not very much so on taxi. I don't seem
to have brake drag andI have tinkered with the toe in. I though Canards did
not have a P-factorand if so should be to the right. IS this really a
toe-in issue? If so,which wheel is off. I have tried 13 different ways of
measuring toe in andthought !
I was about right. But??I just found that I broke an exhaust pipe. The
factory supplied system hadone piece for each cylinder, with the two pieces
on each side slip fittogether and projecting forward. In order to get the
1-3 cylinder assemblyto fit in the cowl, I cut a Vee in them near the
cylinder flange and hadthem rewelded. I thought we normalized them, but
this where the #3 pipecracked. My cowl does hit this pipe a little. So I
need to replace thepipe near the flange and fix the cowl clearance issue.
Anybody know whatstainless steel this is and a source for it. I will call
the factory onMonday and see if they can aim me at the original vendor.In
spite of the oil problem I did a lap around Mt. St Helens last week(found
the broken exhaust on return). See attached photos. First one islooking
west with the Olympics in the background and the second south withthe dark,
still warm part of the mountain in the lower part of the of theimage. I am
at 9500 in these photo!
s.David UllmanN444DXPresident EAA
292541-754-3609david at davidullman.com________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 15:31:05 -0600
From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Oil, P-factor and other things
Message-ID: <BLU171-DS1DAEE1B0817BFEE9478A3D3F10 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
David,
Bon Ami is a very fine polishing power that has been used to seat piston
rings since almost as long as the internal combustion engine has existed. I
think the secret is that the particle size is less than 10 microns and won't
hurt bearings. Comet contains chlorine bleach. That being said, one quart
in 4 hours for a Lycoming 360 is normal. That's what my experience with a
Cherokee 180 would indicate and it went well over TBO.
If it pulls to the left on take off but not on taxi an offset thrust could
be the culprit. This is easy to fix with shims between the engine mount and
the firewall. Miss alignment of the main gear doesn't usually cause
tracking problems but shows up as excess or uneven tire ware.
Larry Coen
N136LC
--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Ullman" <ullman at robustdecisions.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 8:40 AM
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: REFLECTOR: Oil, P-factor and othe things
> I now have 80+ hours on my SEFG. Still have a 50' paint job and the
> interior isn't finished. When we first started flying we had handling
> problems and so the IO-360 C1C never got broken in correctly as we
> couldn't
> do full power at first. Thus, the rings are not seated so I use oil, a
> lot
> of oil - a quart a tank (maybe I have a 2-cycle engine). I am thinking of
> pulling the cylinders, honing and reringing. Any thoughts?
>
> On take off my plane pulls to the left enough that I have to tap the right
> brake. It is not very much so on taxi. I don't seem to have brake drag
> and
> I have tinkered with the toe in. I though Canards did not have a P-factor
> and if so should be to the right. IS this really a toe-in issue? If so,
> which wheel is off. I have tried 13 different ways of measuring toe in
> and
> thought I was about right. But??
>
> I just found that I broke an exhaust pipe. The factory supplied system
> had
> one piece for each cylinder, with the two pieces on each side slip fit
> together and projecting forward. In order to get the 1-3 cylinder
> assembly
> to fit in the cowl, I cut a Vee in them near the cylinder flange and had
> them rewelded. I thought we normalized them, but this where the #3 pipe
> cracked. My cowl does hit this pipe a little. So I need to replace the
> pipe near the flange and fix the cowl clearance issue. Anybody know what
> stainless steel this is and a source for it. I will call the factory on
> Monday and see if they can aim me at the original vendor.
>
> In spite of the oil problem I did a lap around Mt. St Helens last week
> (found the broken exhaust on return). See attached photos. First one is
> looking west with the Olympics in the background and the second south with
> the dark, still warm part of the mountain in the lower part of the of the
> image. I am at 9500 in these photos.
>
> David Ullman
> N444DX
> President EAA 292
> 541-754-3609
> david at davidullman.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:53:52 +0000
From: Andrew Judge <ajudge at grovenetworks.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Cc: "reflector at tvbf.org" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Oil, P-factor and othe things
Message-ID: <9AE0DF01-96DB-4256-9743-C3A12289D5FF at grovenetworks.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Same on my c1c. 600 hours and peels through oil. My compression is always
78/80 or 79/80.
Temps are 185 on oil and 360-380 on cht
On Feb 23, 2013, at 2:45 PM, "Tom Cacek"
<hytec45 at aol.com<mailto:hytec45 at aol.com>> wrote:
I have over 800 hrs on my IO360C1C and have been fighting the same oil
consumption issue since new. 2hrs per quart. I re-honed the cylinders
(twice) new pistons and rings with no difference. After about 500 hrs. (With
nothing else to spend money on) I went so far as to install new cylinders,
nitrited w/chrome rings (best low oil consumption combination),followed
break-in to the "T",with the same results, 2hrs per quart. Tried all
different oil levels, oil separators. My engine has the oil nozzles in the
main bearing bolsters that point into the cylinders to spray oil on the
piston base. I think that these nozzles flood the cylinder wall, and the oil
ring doesn't get it all. I have never had any signs of any oil on prop, or
leakage, and my exhaust has always been a light ash color. I have been told
I can remove the nozzles, but since my cylinder and oil temps are great, I
decided not to.
I will be interested to see what this thread can provide.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Andrew Judge
President
Grove Networks Inc.
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Please email any requests for support to support at grovenetworks.com or call
us at 305-448 6126 for immediate assistance
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ullman
<ullman at robustdecisions.com<mailto:ullman at robustdecisions.com>>
To: reflector <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
Sent: Sat, Feb 23, 2013 04:45 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Oil, P-factor and othe things
I now have 80+ hours on my SEFG. Still have a 50' paint job and the
interior isn't finished. When we first started flying we had handling
problems and so the IO-360 C1C never got broken in correctly as we couldn't
do full power at first. Thus, the rings are not seated so I use oil, a lot
of oil - a quart a tank (maybe I have a 2-cycle engine). I am thinking of
pulling the cylinders, honing and reringing. Any thoughts?
On take off my plane pulls to the left enough that I have to tap the right
brake. It is not very much so on taxi. I don't seem to have brake drag and
I have tinkered with the toe in. I though Canards did not have a P-factor
and if so should be to the right. IS this really a toe-in issue? If so,
which wheel is off. I have tried 13 different ways of measuring toe in and
thought I was about right. But??
I just found that I broke an exhaust pipe. The factory supplied system had
one piece for each cylinder, with the two pieces on each side slip fit
together and projecting forward. In order to get the 1-3 cylinder assembly
to fit in the cowl, I cut a Vee in them near the cylinder flange and had
them rewelded. I thought we normalized them, but this where the #3 pipe
cracked. My cowl does hit this pipe a little. So I need to replace the
pipe near the flange and fix the cowl clearance issue. Anybody know what
stainless steel this is and a source for it. I will call the factory on
Monday and see if they can aim me at the original vendor.
In spite of the oil problem I did a lap around Mt. St Helens last week
(found the broken exhaust on return). See attached photos. First one is
looking west with the Olympics in the background and the second south with
the dark, still warm part of the mountain in the lower part of the of the
image. I am at 9500 in these photos.
David Ullman
N444DX
President EAA 292
541-754-3609
david at davidullman.com<mailto:david at davidullman.com>
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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