REFLECTOR: Uneven Fuel Flow FIx

Andrew Judge ajudge at grovenetworks.com
Sun Feb 17 09:29:10 CST 2013


There was something that I read somewhere where Rutan had this happen – fuel starvation with fuel in the tanks before he put valves in his designs. It has something to do with this post by him. I couldn’t find the original that explained everything in detail, but this summarizes his take on his planes. Not Velocity, but similar.

http://www.ez.org/t/cp29-p3a


From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 10:07 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Cc: Mark Magee
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Uneven Fuel Flow FIx

Has -anyone- starved the sump tank in this fuel imbalanced condition in straight and level (autopilot) flight? Short of a leaking cap streaming fuel on the full and wing low tank or defective plumbing I have not read nor heard of such a thing. From my experience, in straight and level flight, with S-TEK holding course with aileron, I don't think it is possible to starve the sump tank. At least this is my situation where I showed no fuel starboard tank for at least an hour with no less than 3/4 tank at one point port side (low wing as S-TEC held course line with aileron).
I would be curious to hear if anyone has had fuel starvation or even low sump fuel light on a simply auto-pilot steady course being flown over a long period due to one wing low.
Anyone?
John A.?
I got home fine on port side tank only showing fuel. Sump fuel starvation light never lit off.
Mark Magee
N34XL
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Mark Riley <the_rileys1 at verizon.net<mailto:the_rileys1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
I have had this happen several times, where one tank has 15 or more gallons and the other is approaching empty. I have put the plane in a slip with the full tank on the high wing and the imbalance is corrected within a couple of minutes. I have also taken a moment to slow down and do a couple of steep turns with the full tank on the high side. That works too. This even occurred to me way out over the Atlantic with no land in sight.

I wouldn't assume that every Velocity will begin drawing fuel from the full tank after the other is empty. In my opinion, that is something an owner needs to verify for himself while circling over his airport just in case. I haven't done that yet, so on the infrequent occasions I get an imbalance, I use my other simple remedies for peace of mind.

Bottom line though is that this is an issue that is easily dealt with.

Mark


On Feb 16, 2013, at 7:37 PM, reflector-request at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-request at tvbf.org> wrote:

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>   1. Re:  Fuel imbalance (gstull at tampabay.rr.com<mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com>)
>   2. Re:  Fuel imbalance (Dennis Martin)
>   3. Re:  Fuel imbalance (Mark Magee)
>   4. Re:  Fuel imbalance (Andrew Judge)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:17:13 -0500
> From: <gstull at tampabay.rr.com<mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com>>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
> Cc: "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com<mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com>>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel imbalance
> Message-ID: <20130216201713.2RCKV.17593.root at hrndva-web24-z01<mailto:20130216201713.2RCKV.17593.root at hrndva-web24-z01>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> My FG Velo always has about a 7 gal differential in cruise. I pressure checked the tanks, no leaks and no bubbles from the gas caps. I even flew with a vacuum gauge hooked to each tank, first the left tank and then the right tank, to confirm there was no leak creating a vacuum. Ball is centered and I taped a string to the canopy so I could visually assure myself it was flying straight and level. I ran the tanks dry until the low fuel light came on from the sump tank. It actually drained all the fuel from both tanks, even though most of the time the left tank was fuller then the right. Virtually all Cessna's I've flown have a split between tanks in flight, but I always thought it was just bad gauges. Since I have sight glasses in the Velo I know that's not the case. I've finally just accepted this as normal and of no concern. Especially since it will drain all the fuel from both tanks. Still a mystery but not worth worrying about.
> ---- "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com<mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com>> wrote:
>> Last Sunday I was flying back to Naples, FL from Augusta, GA in my SERG. I took off with 25 a side.
>>
>> As I flew down the right tank was the only tank feeding fuel to the sump tank. When I hit the VNAV point for Naples the right tank was at 6 gallons.
>>
>> When I stated to descend the left tank started to feed the sump tank and actually transfer fuel to the right tank.
>>
>> Any ideas what could have been going on?
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>>




Andrew Judge

President

Grove Networks Inc.


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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:57:45 -0700
> From: Dennis Martin <dennis.doc at gmail.com<mailto:dennis.doc at gmail.com>>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel imbalance
> Message-ID:
>       <CAG8_WT-ftYBfJ2vWR_tiBsWt_+PprwTa6tee7cOR5VdzRoFmUA at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAG8_WT-ftYBfJ2vWR_tiBsWt_%2BPprwTa6tee7cOR5VdzRoFmUA at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've got less than 40 hours and no fuel issues so far but this thread makes
> me wonder. Assume you're carrying 30 gallons, and most or all of that
> gravitates to the left tank, won't that tank still feed the sump assuming
> your vents are working properly and you have no leaks in either cap? Also.
> assuming you are not flying with the left wing pointed down.
>
> Dennis Martin
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:17 PM, <gstull at tampabay.rr.com<mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com>> wrote:
>
>> My FG Velo always has about a 7 gal differential in cruise. I pressure
>> checked the tanks, no leaks and no bubbles from the gas caps. I even flew
>> with a vacuum gauge hooked to each tank, first the left tank and then the
>> right tank, to confirm there was no leak creating a vacuum. Ball is
>> centered and I taped a string to the canopy so I could visually assure
>> myself it was flying straight and level. I ran the tanks dry until the low
>> fuel light came on from the sump tank. It actually drained all the fuel
>> from both tanks, even though most of the time the left tank was fuller then
>> the right. Virtually all Cessna's I've flown have a split between tanks in
>> flight, but I always thought it was just bad gauges. Since I have sight
>> glasses in the Velo I know that's not the case. I've finally just accepted
>> this as normal and of no concern. Especially since it will drain all the
>> fuel from both tanks. Still a mystery but not worth worrying about.
>> ---- "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com<mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com>> wrote:
>>> Last Sunday I was flying back to Naples, FL from Augusta, GA in my SERG.
>> I took off with 25 a side.
>>>
>>> As I flew down the right tank was the only tank feeding fuel to the sump
>> tank. When I hit the VNAV point for Naples the right tank was at 6 gallons.
>>>
>>> When I stated to descend the left tank started to feed the sump tank and
>> actually transfer fuel to the right tank.
>>>
>>> Any ideas what could have been going on?
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
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> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:07:16 -0600
> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
> Cc: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel imbalance
> Message-ID:
>       <CAEe5d_dTXkogM5KbGi6g6i01xWxbTP7v8_DAFzreYxtpviDSwg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAEe5d_dTXkogM5KbGi6g6i01xWxbTP7v8_DAFzreYxtpviDSwg at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I wouldn't lose too much sleep over this issue, the boys in Sebastian have
> already put a slide-rule to it. We are fairly unique in having the sump and
> no selector valve(s). As long as your caps have good o-ring seals you can
> fight a crosswind for many a mile, with gas transferring 'naturally' to the
> low tank, all the while the sump staying topped-off; and that's all anyone
> should care about. John A's instruction to me in transition training is
> only to worry about draining the sump on steep descents with a low fuel
> state.
> I'll tell you it was little freaky to take off in Phoenix with topped tanks
> and a little beyond El Paso I'm Port side nearly full and Starboard side
> almost drained. I was thumping gauges...  I love steam gauges, they are
> designed to be thumped.... :)
> After landing I showed about 15 gallons Port and 0 STBD side. Next morning
> they were equalized at about 7,5 gals each (estimated).
>
> Mark Magee
> N34XL XLFG
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Dennis Martin <dennis.doc at gmail.com<mailto:dennis.doc at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> I've got less than 40 hours and no fuel issues so far but this thread
>> makes me wonder. Assume you're carrying 30 gallons, and most or all of that
>> gravitates to the left tank, won't that tank still feed the sump assuming
>> your vents are working properly and you have no leaks in either cap? Also.
>> assuming you are not flying with the left wing pointed down.
>>
>> Dennis Martin
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:17 PM, <gstull at tampabay.rr.com<mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> My FG Velo always has about a 7 gal differential in cruise. I pressure
>>> checked the tanks, no leaks and no bubbles from the gas caps. I even flew
>>> with a vacuum gauge hooked to each tank, first the left tank and then the
>>> right tank, to confirm there was no leak creating a vacuum. Ball is
>>> centered and I taped a string to the canopy so I could visually assure
>>> myself it was flying straight and level. I ran the tanks dry until the low
>>> fuel light came on from the sump tank. It actually drained all the fuel
>>> from both tanks, even though most of the time the left tank was fuller then
>>> the right. Virtually all Cessna's I've flown have a split between tanks in
>>> flight, but I always thought it was just bad gauges. Since I have sight
>>> glasses in the Velo I know that's not the case. I've finally just accepted
>>> this as normal and of no concern. Especially since it will drain all the
>>> fuel from both tanks. Still a mystery but not worth worrying about.
>>> ---- "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com<mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com>> wrote:
>>>> Last Sunday I was flying back to Naples, FL from Augusta, GA in my
>>> SERG. I took off with 25 a side.
>>>>
>>>> As I flew down the right tank was the only tank feeding fuel to the
>>> sump tank. When I hit the VNAV point for Naples the right tank was at 6
>>> gallons.
>>>>
>>>> When I stated to descend the left tank started to feed the sump tank
>>> and actually transfer fuel to the right tank.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas what could have been going on?
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> To change your email address, visit
>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>
>>>> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery<http://www.tvbf.org/gallery>
>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail<http://www.tvbf.org/pipermail>
>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To change your email address, visit
>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>
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>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 00:33:37 +0000
> From: Andrew Judge <ajudge at grovenetworks.com<mailto:ajudge at grovenetworks.com>>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel imbalance
> Message-ID: <3B8B3E6A-107F-437E-B036-CB9250280BA8 at grovenetworks.com<mailto:3B8B3E6A-107F-437E-B036-CB9250280BA8 at grovenetworks.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I get the same thing. Everything appears straight and it always drains the starboard tank. With about 5 gallons left, they start balancing out. I haven't seen it turn on the sump warning light. I have almost 600 hours on my plane. Sometimes ez turn fuel lube on the caps an o rings helps. Sometimes...
>
> On Feb 16, 2013, at 5:11 PM, "Mark Magee" <edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com><mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't lose too much sleep over this issue, the boys in Sebastian have already put a slide-rule to it. We are fairly unique in having the sump and no selector valve(s). As long as your caps have good o-ring seals you can fight a crosswind for many a mile, with gas transferring 'naturally' to the low tank, all the while the sump staying topped-off; and that's all anyone should care about. John A's instruction to me in transition training is only to worry about draining the sump on steep descents with a low fuel state.
> I'll tell you it was little freaky to take off in Phoenix with topped tanks and a little beyond El Paso I'm Port side nearly full and Starboard side almost drained. I was thumping gauges...  I love steam gauges, they are designed to be thumped.... :)
> After landing I showed about 15 gallons Port and 0 STBD side. Next morning they were equalized at about 7,5 gals each (estimated).
>
> Mark Magee
> N34XL XLFG
>
>
>
>
>
> Andrew Judge
>
> President
>
> Grove Networks Inc.
>
>
> [cid:imagef4baaf.PNG at 1ca50ba5.43aa3667]
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>
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Dennis Martin <dennis.doc at gmail.com<mailto:dennis.doc at gmail.com><mailto:dennis.doc at gmail.com<mailto:dennis.doc at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> I've got less than 40 hours and no fuel issues so far but this thread makes me wonder. Assume you're carrying 30 gallons, and most or all of that gravitates to the left tank, won't that tank still feed the sump assuming your vents are working properly and you have no leaks in either cap? Also. assuming you are not flying with the left wing pointed down.
>
> Dennis Martin
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:17 PM, <gstull at tampabay.rr.com<mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com><mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com<mailto:gstull at tampabay.rr.com>>> wrote:
> My FG Velo always has about a 7 gal differential in cruise. I pressure checked the tanks, no leaks and no bubbles from the gas caps. I even flew with a vacuum gauge hooked to each tank, first the left tank and then the right tank, to confirm there was no leak creating a vacuum. Ball is centered and I taped a string to the canopy so I could visually assure myself it was flying straight and level. I ran the tanks dry until the low fuel light came on from the sump tank. It actually drained all the fuel from both tanks, even though most of the time the left tank was fuller then the right. Virtually all Cessna's I've flown have a split between tanks in flight, but I always thought it was just bad gauges. Since I have sight glasses in the Velo I know that's not the case. I've finally just accepted this as normal and of no concern. Especially since it will drain all the fuel from both tanks. Still a mystery but not worth worrying about.
> ---- "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com<mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com><mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com<mailto:richard at naples-air-center.com>>> wrote:
>> Last Sunday I was flying back to Naples, FL from Augusta, GA in my SERG. I took off with 25 a side.
>>
>> As I flew down the right tank was the only tank feeding fuel to the sump tank. When I hit the VNAV point for Naples the right tank was at 6 gallons.
>>
>> When I stated to descend the left tank started to feed the sump tank and actually transfer fuel to the right tank.
>>
>> Any ideas what could have been going on?
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery<http://www.tvbf.org/gallery><http://www.tvbf.org/gallery>
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail<http://www.tvbf.org/pipermail><http://www.tvbf.org/pipermail>
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
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