REFLECTOR: Flying Magazine - 2009 Velocity accident (Mark Magee)

Lawrence Epstein ljepstein at hotmail.com
Wed Oct 10 13:50:29 CDT 2012


I always thought that the elevator cuffs *increased *the speed at which the
elevator stalls, therefore not allowing the nose to come up as high,
thereby reducing the maximum (attainable) AOA of the main wing, thereby
reducing the possibility of a stall of the *main wing*?

Larry Epstein

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:

>  Just to clarify, the cuffs on the elevator were not to lower the stall
> speed, though they did have that effect. They were to smooth out the stall
> porpoise effect and produce a mushing effect which the factory for a short
> time thought that would be more accepted by the public.
>
> Scott
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Flying Magazine - 2009 Velocity accident (Mark
> Magee)
> From: Laurence Coen <lwcoen at hotmail.com> <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org><reflector at tvbf.org>
> Date: 10/10/2012 11:15 AM
>
> The leading edge cuffs on the main wing are a modification to the original
> wing to lower the stall speed.  The wing was later redesigned making the
> cuffs unnecessary.  Since you have the old style wing you should leave the
> cuffs in place.  There were also cuffs installed on the leading edge of the
> elevator which raised the canard stall speed.  The general consensus is
> that the elevator cuffs are not necessary.
>
> Larry Coen
> N136LC
>
>  *From:* none <markinchampions at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 10, 2012 11:37 AM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Flying Magazine - 2009 Velocity accident (Mark
> Magee)
>
>  I have an old standard FG project that I purchased with the airframe
> completed. The original builder placed a leading edge cuff on the wings to
> help eliminate the deep stall. I've read good and bad concerning this
> modification. I would like comments on this modification. Good, bad, should
> it be removed, should I keep it. Let me know.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 10, 2012, at 11:22 AM, "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Dave,
>
> It wasn't a thunderstorm, it was wake turbulence and he came down inverted
> which is likely why it was fatal. All else is accurate.
>
> Larry Coen
> N136LC
>
>  *From:* Dave T Nelson <dtnelson at us.ibm.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 10, 2012 6:42 AM
> *To:* reflector at tvbf.org
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Flying Magazine - 2009 Velocity accident (Mark
> Magee)
>
>  The author got other basic facts wrong.  It wasn't Rutan that mounted an
> EZ on the back of a truck to investigate deep stall... it was Danny Maier,
> and it was a Velocity.  Also, the one other fatal deep stall mentioned in
> the article was a Velocity where the builder had modified the fuel tanks by
> removing the rear wall of the tank and allowing the fuel to go all the way
> back to the spar to gain more fuel capacity.  That, and the fact that he
> flew into a thunderstorm, caused the accident.
>
> Geez....
>
> Dave
>
> Dave T. Nelson
> T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
> Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering
> ----- Forwarded by Dave T Nelson/Rochester/IBM on 10/10/2012 06:39 AM
>  -----
> On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:59 PM, Scott Derrick <*scott at tnstaafl.net*<scott at tnstaafl.net>>
> wrote:
>
>    There are mistruths, he states 3 prior accidents, two landing in the
>    ocean.  He fails to mention one of those was intentional by the factory,
>    the test pilot elected to stay in the airplane, he had a parachute, and
>    soft landed in the ocean.  That plane  was flying the next day. He states
>    that any canard airplane can be deep stalled at 128K by either aft cg or
>    abrupt pullup! First half truth/Lie is that it takes a way aft CG, since
>    the redesign you need to be 2-3+ inches or more aft of aft CG limit and get
>    the airplane in a very odd attitude, which at 128 knots I think thats
>    probably not doable.  That you can deep stall a V by doing abrupt maneuvers
>    is blatant speculation and I've never heard of anybody doing it. I've made
>    some pretty aggressive maneuvers and been in some wild thunderstorm
>    generated turbulence, by myself(aft CG) and never felt any indication at
>    all of a deep stall.  And the accident plane hit really hard!  All three
>    known deep stall accidents, one intentional, all hit very softly, and hit
>    flat. This accident turned over, that would not be characteristic of a deep
>    stall.
>
>    He took a few facts, dressed up a few assumptions, sugar coated a few
>    lies and just made shit up!  I think he has a thing against canards and is
>    playing fast and loose with the facts to paint the V as inherently
>    dangerous.
>
>    Scott
>
>
>
>    -------- Original Message --------
>    Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Flying Magazine - 2009 Velocity accident
>    From: Mark Magee *<edjonesbrady at gmail.com>* <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
>    To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list *<reflector at tvbf.org>*<reflector at tvbf.org>
>    Date: 10/09/2012 04:47 PM
>       Hi Scott,
>       Elaborate?
>
>       Mark B. Magee
>       M34XL
>       Sent from IPhone 4S
>
>       On Oct 9, 2012, at 5:32 PM, Scott Derrick <*scott at tnstaafl.net*<scott at tnstaafl.net>>
>       wrote:
>        You know I've always liked reading Garrison's articles.  I now
>          wonder if most of them are as full of bullshit as this one?  Probably so...
>
>          Scott
>          -------- Original Message --------
>          Subject: REFLECTOR: Flying Magazine - 2009 Velocity accident
>          From: Reiff Lorenz *<Reiff at Lorenz.com>* <Reiff at Lorenz.com>
>          To: *reflector at tvbf.org* <reflector at tvbf.org> *
>          <reflector at tvbf.org>* <reflector at tvbf.org>
>          Date: 10/09/2012 03:42 PM
>
>             This month's Flying magazine has an article (copy attached)
>             about a Velocity accident in 2009. The plane lost a prop blade and this
>             author believes the pilot mistook the violent shaking to be flutter, pulled
>             abruptly on the stick, put the plane into a deep stall, and had no way to
>             use engine power to break the stall.
>
>             I wasn't a Reflector member in 2009 so don't know any more
>             than what is in the article. Is there anything to learn from this apart
>             from the obvious? (Make sure your prop blades stay attached, but recognize
>             the symptoms if they don't, and fly the airplane.)
>
>
>             *Reiff Lorenz, Dayton, OH*
>             Velocity XL-RG, 37% complete
>             Currently working on: Sanding stuff smooth.
>
>
>             *The **Velocity Builders' Virtual Hangar*<https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=d3a73e710c719626dd353d3b101be90f>
>             *. Available 24/7 for builders and owners:*
>             *
>             https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=86a48563bb517ade0abf1a7ee1f38e65
>             *<https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=86a48563bb517ade0abf1a7ee1f38e65>
>
>             PS  I'll be in the hangar from 7 – 9pm EDT tonight (Tuesday
>             is building night!)
>
>
>
>
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