REFLECTOR: STD-RG Performance
Rich Ervin
rich_ervin at hotmail.com
Wed Nov 21 20:39:55 CST 2012
Not a builder, and haven't had a lot of experience with my plane, but I have a 4into2 arrangement (I just assumed this was a standard configuration) and seems to work great. I get good performance. There is a faint buildup of soot on the prop, but haven't seen any hints of it overheating (I have an IVO prop)
With luck, I hope to start and my engine next week. I'll remember to check the prop afterwards and see if there is any noticeable heating. This is ground test only though, so is not likely to reveal a lot.
From: Reiff at lorenz.com
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:31:40 -0500
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: STD-RG Performance
Mark, I've never seen a 6->1 on a plane. I believe that Bill Stockman installed a 4->1 on his SE. The exhaust pipes merged under the engine and exited aft at the center of the cowl. IIRC he found that his oil pan was getting cooked by the heat of the exhaust pipes and couldn't keep the oil temps in range. I think he tried all kinds of heat shrouds and air-flow fixes before reverting to a 4->2 setup. Reiff Lorenz, Dayton, OHVelocity XL-RG, 38% completeCurrently working on: Installing quick-release hardpoints for Corbeau A4 seats The Velocity Builders' Virtual Hangar. Available 24/7 for builders and owners:https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=86a48563bb517ade0abf1a7ee1f38e65 From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:44 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: STD-RG Performance I have wondered about a 6 into 1 tuned exhaust for a 540/550. Anyone done that?
Mark B. MageeN34XLSent from IPhone 4S
On Nov 22, 2012, at 12:42 AM, Matt Bucko <mbuc310 at cox.net> wrote:I currently have a 6 into 2 system just like this. It was on a flying Berkut. He used a wood prop until the power line snag brought him down... I like the system, but have been concerned about melting a plastic prop...
Matt
On 11/20/2012 4:06 PM, Dave T Nelson wrote: Not sure if this will make it through the reflector or not, but here's a shot of my exhaust....
(See attached file: IMG_1045.jpg)
Dave
Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering
----- Message from <jerry at jlbent.com> on Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:22:57 -0500 -----To:Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>Subject:Re: REFLECTOR: Early model Velocity RG Engine Cooling (Now - which performance mods)?Hey Dave,
I would be interested in description of your exhaust. Better still a picture. I don't quite understand how it exist aft of the prop.
Jerry Brainard
Jerry at JLBEnt.com<mime-attachment.gif>-------Original Message-------
From: Dave T Nelson
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Early model Velocity RG Engine Cooling (Now - which performance mods)?
Sent: Nov 20 '12 3:05pmI've got a STD-RG, Lycoming IO-360 and an MT prop. I started off with armpit scoops feeding into a tops-down plenum, along with a single nose mounted oil cooler. Intake air was off a second scoop mounted on the right wing.
My situation was that I built my plane while sharing my shop with a good buddy who built a really nice Cozy 3 place. We got them both flying at about the same time, and spent many happy years racing (and bragging). I still say his plane was the slow ugly one.
Anyway, the main thing(s) you do to make these airplanes go fast are all about weight and aerodynamics. Power increases don't get the same bang for the buck. I focused mostly on drag reduction... really clean gear doors, clean canard/fuselage interface, minimum cooling drag, and clean exhaust system. The last two are the most important.
The armpit scoops are a bit of an aerodynamic disaster... they are all too big. If you tuft or do an oil study on them, you'll find that the bulk of the air is getting pushed back out of the scoop because of the inherent flow resistance of the tubes taking the air to the top of the plenum, the flow through the plenum & engine, and the output behind the prop. An oil study will likely also show nearly dead air at the output (right behind the prop). The total square inches of inlet are too great, and so is the total square inches of outlet.
Many of my initial mods were in trying to clean up the cooling and intake air.. I made several different styles of cooling air intakes, each smaller than the last. Nothing worked particularly well. Eventually, after developing significant cooling issues (which turned out to be an engine issue, not an aer! odynamic problem), I went to the rooftop NACAs. As I said... they work fabulously. I take my induction air off the right NACA. There are no external protrusions on my plane.
The exhaust changes were probably the most speed gain. I've gone from the original rear exiting 2 in 1's that exit through tubes attached to the lower cowl, to the "straight out the bottom" types you see on many XLs today (which were by far the worst performers - a real disaster), to what I have today - a one-of design of my own that keeps the entire exhaust inside the cowl and exits aft of the prop. That was a big gain!
OK, performance... I see around 185 knots true +/- at around 25 squared... middling altitudes... at around 10 - 11 gallons / hour ... cold air, down low, with a light plane is better still. It's not as fast as I'd like, but I'm not done trying. The next ! effort will be a complete cowl redesign to get rid of those awful turns! where the cowl angles in just aft of the last cylinder. All the attached air detaches at that point...
Hope this helps. What numbers to you see?
Dave
Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering
----- Message from "Richard J. Gentil" on Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:38:47 -0500 ----- To:Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject:Re: REFLECTOR: Early model Velocity RG Engine Cooling (David Smith) Dave N,
Which go fast mod have you done and what speeds are you getting? (Please mention the engine and prop combo you are running.)
Thanks,
Richard
Sent from my iPhone 5 _______________________________________________
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----- Message from Scott Baker <scottb33333 at gmail.com> on Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:30:39 -0500 -----To:geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com, Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>Subject:Re: REFLECTOR: Need some advice/measurementsAwesome video !!
Scott B.
On 11/20/2012 2:51 PM, Geoff Gerhardt wrote:
> I had to move my SE-RG in and out of my shop (single-car garage door)
> a couple times. Here's how I did it. I wouldn't try this with an
> engine on, tho. Its relatively easy to pull an engine off, tho.
>
> http://thegerhardts.com/velocity/?p=292
>
> There's a video in that post that shows my wife and I moving it out of
> the shop on a cradle.
>
> Geoff
>
----- Message from none <markinchampions at gmail.com> on Tue, 20 Nov 2012 15:58:50 -0600 -----To:"jerry at jlbent.com" <jerry at jlbent.com>, Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>Subject:Re: REFLECTOR: Early model Velocity RG Engine Cooling (Now - which performance mods)?Me too.
On Nov 20, 2012, at 3:22 PM, <jerry at jlbent.com> wrote:Hey Dave,
I would be interested in description of your exhaust. Better still a picture. I don't quite understand how it exist aft of the prop.
Jerry Brainard
Jerry at JLBEnt.com<mime-attachment.gif>-------Original Message-------
From: Dave T Nelson
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Early model Velocity RG Engine Cooling (Now - which performance mods)?
Sent: Nov 20 '12 3:05pmI've got a STD-RG, Lycoming IO-360 and an MT prop. I started off with armpit scoops feeding into a tops-down plenum, along with a single nose mounted oil cooler. Intake air was off a second scoop mounted on the right wing.
My situation was that I built my plane while sharing my shop with a good buddy who built a really nice Cozy 3 place. We got them both flying at about the same time, and spent many happy years racing (and bragging). I still say his plane was the slow ugly one.
Anyway, the main thing(s) you do to make these airplanes go fast are all about weight and aerodynamics. Power increases don't get the same bang for the buck. I focused mostly on drag reduction... really clean gear doors, clean canard/fuselage interface, minimum cooling drag, and clean exhaust system. The last two are the most important.
The armpit scoops are a bit of an aerodynamic disaster... they are all too big. If you tuft or do an oil study on them, you'll find that the bulk of the air is getting pushed back out of the scoop because of the inherent flow resistance of the tubes taking the air to the top of the plenum, the flow through the plenum & engine, and the output behind the prop. An oil study will likely also show nearly dead air at the output (right behind the prop). The total square inches of inlet are too great, and so is the total square inches of outlet.
Many of my initial mods were in trying to clean up the cooling and intake air.. I made several different styles of cooling air intakes, each smaller than the last. Nothing worked particularly well. Eventually, after developing significant cooling issues (which turned out to be an engine issue, not an aer! odynamic problem), I went to the rooftop NACAs. As I said... they work fabulously. I take my induction air off the right NACA. There are no external protrusions on my plane.
The exhaust changes were probably the most speed gain. I've gone from the original rear exiting 2 in 1's that exit through tubes attached to the lower cowl, to the "straight out the bottom" types you see on many XLs today (which were by far the worst performers - a real disaster), to what I have today - a one-of design of my own that keeps the entire exhaust inside the cowl and exits aft of the prop. That was a big gain!
OK, performance... I see around 185 knots true +/- at around 25 squared... middling altitudes... at around 10 - 11 gallons / hour ... cold air, down low, with a light plane is better still. It's not as fast as I'd like, but I'm not done trying. The next effort will be a complete cowl redesign to get rid of those awful turns! where the cowl angles in just aft of the last cylinder. All the attached air detaches at that point...
Hope this helps. What numbers to you see?
Dave
Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering
----- Message from "Richard J. Gentil" on Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:38:47 -0500 ----- To:Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject:Re: REFLECTOR: Early model Velocity RG Engine Cooling (David Smith) Dave N,
Which go fast mod have you done and what speeds are you getting? (Please mention the engine and prop combo you are running.)
Thanks,
Richard
Sent from my iPhone 5 _______________________________________________
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