REFLECTOR: EI and Detonation

Mark Magee edjonesbrady at gmail.com
Tue Jun 26 06:19:04 CDT 2012


Hi John,
I agree, however it appears that knock sensors that work as a retrofit for LYC/CONT & similars is vaporware at this point. Certainly we don't get to examine combustion chamber metal routinely and in-flight. I will choose to research the the EIs for the IO 540 with MAP sensor advance that have the best historical data showing the designers advance curve never gets -too- advanced. With the data posted in this thread earlier we all have license to challenge the EI vendors that it is incumbent upon them to thoroughly prove that their offerings for our specific applications are advancing aggressively with a drop in MAP, yet never pushing over the line into lighting the fires -too- early.
As I have stated before I installed a Rose EI with MAP on my Long EZ with O 235 L2C with advance curve designed by San Diego EZ Squadron (Aerospace Engineers) and saw my fuel burn at 11,500 WOT 2850 RPM (we ran that little engine fast at altitude!) go from 6.6 gal/hr to 5.4 gal/hr 148 KTIAS, EI at 41DEG advanced. I have no idea if I was in slight detonation, but had no metal on my plugs. I sold that bird before a tear down. My point is my numbers reflected a 15% reduction in fuel burn at same speed. 15% greater range and no lead fouled plugs: IMO the EI is definitely worth it. Until this thread I'd never heard of detonation with them, and this is obviously serious and caught my attention.

Maybe some folks could chime in 
1) whose EI they use 
2) for how long (HOBBS/HRS)
3) on what engine 
4) decrease % in fuel burn at CRUISE
5) ANY indications of pre-ignition

I know the EMAG PMAGS are relatively new, but data would still be pertinent.



Mark B. Magee
N34XL XLFG 300HP
Sent from IPhone 4

On Jun 25, 2012, at 1:14 PM, John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com> wrote:

> On 6/25/2012 1:01 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
> 
> Maybe I'll get my EI and just keep closely monitoring CHT which should climb sharply on detonation.
> 
> This is true for severe detonation.  With mild detonation, the CHTs won't change much.  Also look for metal deposits in the spark plug gap or erosion of the electrode.  When you're at conditions where the mag timing is the timing you want, compare the mag alone to the EI alone.  If the EI runs stronger, the base EI timing is too advanced.
> 
> John
>> 
>> Mark B. Magee
>> N34XL
>> Sent from IPhone 4
>> 
>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Jones Nick <nick.jones at volvo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Not sure that Klaus knows everything. The new Lycoming iE2 engines have knock sensors. It may be that he doesn’t have the resources to figure out how to tune out or ignore the extraneous noise.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> <image003.jpg>
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Nick and Connie Jones
>>> 
>>> Velocity XL-RG
>>> 
>>> N10CN
>>> 
>>> 99% done 90% to go
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
>>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:17 AM
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Cc: reflector at tvbf.org
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EI and Detonation
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Hi Kurt,
>>> 
>>> Klaus said that a knock sensor will not work on an air cooled engine: period. This was seconded by PMAG and Electro Air. Apparently aircooled engines are just tremendously mechanically noisy. Knock sensors 'listen' for a knock and with current automotive style knock sensors (from h2o cooled engines) they can't distinguish between a preignition knock and all the other mechanical noises it 'hears'. GAMI is pioneering technology that reads combustion pressures rather than listening for a knock in sensing pre-ignition. They are working on a FADEC system that the new knock sensor technology is key to. I'm inclined to continue leaning and forgo EI on N34XL until it is clear that a workable FADEC is or isn't  coming. The lack of a knock sensor on current EI offerings is a serious drawback IMHO. Particularly in light of coming changes in 100LL.
>>> 
>>> Mark B. Magee
>>> 
>>> N34XL
>>> 
>>> Sent from IPhone 4
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 9:13 AM, nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mark, 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Good question :)  I haven't flown with it yet or even adjusted it (since I don't have the prop on yet). Klaus has lots of experience, if he is talking about the Stand Alone knock sensors (versus the ones computers use) I would believe him. Mine is adjustable. You set the amount of sensitivity where you want it and go from there. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Kurt 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Cc: reflector <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:14 am
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EI and Detonation
>>> 
>>> Hi Kurt,
>>> 
>>> Do you think it is working (correctly). I've spoken to Klaus Savier at Lightspeed and he said conventional knock sensors won't work due to high engine 'noise' of an air cooled engine. Please elaborate on your findings.
>>> 
>>> FWIW I understand GAMI is testing a FADEC system that I corporates EI, EFI, ECU and new knock sensor technology that works on noisy air cooled engines. I have a call in to GAMI and will report what they allow on this. Unfortunately for us GAMI will seek certification and therefore cost more and take longer for release.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark B. Magee
>>> 
>>> N34XL
>>> 
>>> Sent from IPhone 4
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 24, 2012, at 10:01 AM, nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> I purchased a Stand alone detonation detector (knock sensor) from Summitt racing. I took it apart and put the display unit on the panel, and the sendor and shriek warning in the kick panel. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Kurt 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com>
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:31 am
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: EI and Detonation
>>> 
>>> Sorry, I'll try to avoid the send key until finished.
>>> 
>>> On 6/23/2012 7:50 AM, John Dibble wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mark,
>>> 
>>> Don't know where to begin.  The problem is that over 900 hours, I didn't know for sure I was detonating until I discovered one cylinder liner and piston were eaten away at the top.  There were subtle hints, like when the #5 cylinder temp increased by 50 C during descent from 9500' with power near idle.  Going full rich brought the temp down.  Or when the #1 cylinder EI plug gap would become filled solid with a dark material.  In the beginning I assumed that was carbon, but later figured out it was metal, usually steel.  The real attention getter was when the engine would stumble at 1000' right after T/O.  There's more, but let's move on to the contributing factors.
>>> 
>>> First of all my engine is a 10.5/1 compression Franklin.  I think the high compression engines simply do not need (or can tolerate) as much advance.
>>> 
>>> Second, at the peak of detonation problems, I discovered the EI had a bad ground ( 1 ohm of resistance) and I understand that a bad ground will cause an EI to further advance by 10-20 degrees.  Now I check the ground at every annual.
>>> 
>>> Third,  there is no good way to verify that the EI is set up properly.  It's like dead reconing, you set everything per the instructions and assume that the timing is where it's supposed to be.  Well, mine wasn't.  I ended up retarding the timing by about 12 degrees from the instructions.  To preserve the 0 degree starting capability, I retarded the timing by moving the timing ring rather than an adjustment to the initial advance setting.  I determined the desired timing by doing a "mag check" while flying, making several adjustments on the gound until I achieved the same rpm drop with the EI compared to the mag.  I have disabled the manifold pressure advance function and use the minimum 6 degree rpm advance setting.  Perhaps I could see some performance increase by using a little more advance at high altitude, but for now I will keep it simple as avoiding detonation is the prime consideration.  If I do decide to try more advance in the future, I will install a rheostat and manually input the extra advance, but it will be a guess as to how much, so I will probably not try it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 6/22/2012 10:48 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> 
>>> Your issues with detonation are troubling me. I ran a Rose EI on a Long EZ years ago and know that at 11,500 I was 41DEG advanced with a reduced fuel burn of about 15%. We in the San Diego EZ squadron designed the advance curve and Rose burned it in. 
>>> 
>>> How did you find out you were detonating?
>>> 
>>> Detonation could lead us back to our Glide Distance thread. I don't believe there are any working knock sensors out the for a LYC/CONT EI, yet it seems to me that retarding back to mag advance will kill the fuel savings advantage of an EI.
>>> 
>>> I'd appreciate any additional data on EI advance curve and detonation you've uncovered
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark B. Magee
>>> 
>>> N34 XL
>>> 
>>> Sent from IPhone 4
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 22, 2012, at 8:39 PM, John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Cruise altitude depends on the weather.  On a rare SKC day I fly 9500/10500.  On a partly cloudy day, there are bound to be cloud tops to 13000, requiring O2 if you want to stay above the cloud bases where the air is far smoother.   When solid overcast, it's usually smooth air below the ceiling.
>>> I'd go with the lesser advance timing, or even no advance at all until you determine how much advance is right for your engine.  I have one Rose EI on my Franklin and I had detonation damage from too much advance.  I ended up disabling the advance and setting the EI to the same advance as my mag.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> On 6/22/2012 6:23 PM, Richard J. Gentil wrote:
>>> 
>>>  I am planning on taking my first long trip in my Normally Aspirated, Dual EI, MT, IO-390, SERG. Going from Naples, FL to Norfolk, NE. (Day VFR. Not ready to test her in IFR yet.)   
>>>      
>>>  I figure I can make it with one stop to stretch the legs and relieve the bladder.    
>>>      
>>>  My question is cruising altitudes. (I can take an O2 bottle if there is any good gain by going up 16,500 or 17,500).    
>>>      
>>>  What altitudes do you find most efficient etc for a Velo.    
>>>      
>>>  I have two timing advance curves with my E-Mag and P-Mag. I am currently using curve A as set by the factory not tried curve B yet. (I have not hooked them up at an EICAD yet.)   
>>>      
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  I would be very interested in your recommendations.    
>>>      
>>>  Richard   
>>>      
>>>  Sent from my iPhone 4 Classic   
>>>  
>>> 
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>> 
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