REFLECTOR: Ouch

Tue Jul 31 07:38:00 CDT 2012

I tend to agree with Mark although I can see Patrick’s point. I would say that it has as much to do with the environment which we operate in. If flying at night and over mountainous terrain, getting down to terra firma in a hurry may present more danger than dealing with the fire. As for me, I would gladly pull a handle to try putting out a fire and attempt a restart rather than plow into a mountainside at night. Of course not having the fire in the first place is the preferred option and therefore maintenance is a must. There are no minor details in aviation.

Best regards,

Nick and Connie Jones
Velocity XL-RG
N10CN
99% done 90% to go

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 9:21 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

Hi Patrick,
You make a good point on the weight, but getting terra firma from 10,000 AGL with a fire will be tricky. I don't think our chances are so good. With a fuel-fed fire I would estimate zero chance to descend through 10,000 FT. Annual conditional Inspections are so important: check all fuel and oil fittings.

Mark B. Magee
Sent from IPhone 4

On Jul 30, 2012, at 7:43 PM, "Patrick Sieders" <pjsieders at comcast.net<mailto:pjsieders at comcast.net>> wrote:
Hello all,

Before we all go completely overboard and try to take off overweight, in ground effect…

I believe that that’s why we have a firewall, in particular the metal one, to create a barrier for the flames to remain on one side IF they are not contained within the engine. I know that we all would like to survive and keep the plane intact, however carrying all kinds of resque equipment in reaction to one, or a few, inflight emergencies, seems to load up our airplanes.

Halon is not ‘user’- friendly.. I use it on my other airplane, but not in the cabin. Carrying a fire protection system on our airplanes will make it even more of a maintenance hog, not to mention the chances of inadvertent fire detection…

I believe what this pilot seems to have done.. get on the ground and get out ! Walk away… yes, it’s hard, but we simply cannot cover every (remote) emergency in our GA aircraft in my belief.

Maybe I am wrong but..

Survivability is greater making an emergency landing than trying to fight an inflight fire in a GA aircraft.

Patrick Sieders
Nashville TN USA

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]<mailto:[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]> On Behalf Of Paul Folkes
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:31 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

I support Mark's comments (ex-Navy also), however here in Aust we can also still use BCF (also known as Halon 1211) for "critical applications" in aviation, military etc - very common still in many cockpits.  Very effective for the classes of fire you might expect in a cockpit.  Won't kill you either unless you take a direct lung full of it.  Banned for all other applications.

Paul Folkes
XL-RG  VH-VVX
building but a loong way to go!
On 31 July 2012 05:37, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Reiff,
There are different formulations of Halon, run the Wikipedia on Halon: Halon 10001 through Halon 2600, fifteen different formulations listed in the article. I can't remember what flavor we used in the Navy, but you definitely would not want even a whiff of that product. I think we used the Halon 2402, the the Russians recently killed 20 and injured (brain dead?) 21 more with an accidental activation of Halon 2402 in a submarine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dibromotetrafluoroethane

For most cockpit fires a CO2 should work fine. Directing the CO2 to the fire is key. Halon is a 'flooding' methodology of firefighting, such as flooding the entire space (enclosure) where the fire is. Knowing what they told me about the Halon we used in the Navy, I'd be wary of cockpit use. Even if it is only a chemical-cousin of the potent formula we used.

Mark B. Magee
N34XL
Sent from IPhone 4

On Jul 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Reiff Lorenz <Reiff at lorenz.com<mailto:Reiff at lorenz.com>> wrote:

>> So what is one to use for fire in the cockpit?<<

Kevin,

For a cockpit fire, I'd still use Halon. It is lethal in high concentrations because it displaces the oxygen. Also, getting hit directly with a blast of it can freeze skin quickly. CO2 has these same problems. There are respiratory and cardiac symptoms associated with high concentrations of Halon, but considering how effective it is, I'd risk a transient respiratory condition when faced with a fire in flight.

From the Halon 1301 MSDS:

Respiratory Protection: Not normally required under conditions of use as a portable fire extinguisher. In oxygen deficient atmospheres, use a self-contained breathing apparatus, as an air purifying respirator will not provide protection.

The manufacture and import of Halon has been banned by most developed nations. Not because it is a health hazard, but because it has extreme effects on the ozone layer. All Halon products currently on the market are filled from supplies manufactured before 1994. Much of it is recycled from old fire suppression systems in decommissioned aircraft or industrial facilities.

Here is more than you ever wanted to know:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/qa.html

Hope none of us ever needs to use it!

Reiff Lorenz, Dayton, OH
Velocity XL-RG, 34% complete
Currently working on: Installing sump tank, running fuel & vent lines

The Velocity Builders' Virtual Hangar<https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=d3a73e710c719626dd353d3b101be90f>. Available 24/7 for builders and owners:
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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>] On Behalf Of Kevin Baker
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:11 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

So what is one to use for fire in the cockpit?
Kevin

.

On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>> wrote:
Correct. We had to muster (inventory) our people prior to flooding a (ship) engineering space (engine room). Any personnel in the engineering space flooded with Halon to quench a fire were written off as dead. Either the fire killed them, but if not the Halon certainly would. Fuel fed fires are nasty beasts and not easily controlled. Nothing better than Halon, maybe that's why it's not banned yet (EPA).
I don't see a problem flooding a Velocity engine compartment with Halon either in-flight or on the ground. Great thing is cleanup is a snap as it deploys as a gas.

Mark B. Magee
N34XL
Sent from IPhone 4

On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Grover McNair <grover at mcnairperformance.com<mailto:grover at mcnairperformance.com>> wrote:
The danger with Halon is the risk of breathing it in. That should not be a problem if it is not dispersed in the cockpit.
Grover McNair

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:40 AM, "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net<mailto:velocity_pilot at verizon.net>> wrote:
Halon is still available- got mine from Summit Racing I think. I guess the potential of possibly damaging a few ozone molecules is outweighed by loss of life thankfully…
I have my nozzles pointing at the intake area/fuel rails, and the turbocharger area- my top intakes feed my oil & PSRU coolers through scat tubing, and the turbo intercooler on the other side, so it would be difficult to get any going in there, but also unlikely that the fire would be there either. I think that 3 pounds will be enough to extinguish any fire as long as the cowling is not breached by the time I pull the release, those little cameras are pretty inexpensive these days, so if I get a temp alarm back there, I can flip it on and see what is what.
At least in the velocity an engine fire would not come into the pilot’s area of the cabin very quickly, although, aileron control might be affected- or maybe not- I think that the problem is that the liner melts and when it cools, it locks up the ailerons, if it is still hot might be OK, would be interesting to see if Teleflex has ever tested that……

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]<mailto:[mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]> On Behalf Of nmflyer1 at aol.com<mailto:nmflyer1 at aol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:16 AM
To: reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

I like the idea of a fire suppression system as well. In talking with the pilot, he didn't even know he had a fire until he landed. The engine quit and the flames started just as he turned off the end of the runway. All he knew is that he smelled some "hot oil", then started down for the airport. A witness watching the landing said there was not even any smoke until the end of the runway, then a second or two later.. fire.

I was there talking with the FAA as they did the inspection of the wreckage. Only thing they found was some questionable fittings that were loose. They acknowledged that the looseness could have come from the heat of the fire... or been there prior. Fittings right next to the loose ones were tight... so that leads to some doubts on the tightness of the oil fittings next to the turbo.

Kurt

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com<mailto:edjonesbrady at gmail.com>>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
Sent: Sun, Jul 29, 2012 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch
Hi Alex,
You are a man after my own heart. There is little worse for a pilot than an in-flight fire. They're quite rare, but might ruin a whole day. We used Halon extensively in the Navy, unbelievably effective. I thought Halon fire suppressant been outlawed but just checked and found them still available. I may follow your lead and have a Halon bottle trained on my engine compartment with heat sensors. I'll have to study this: the ram air for the cylinders does present a problem with any fire-suppressant flooding technique for an aircraft engine compartment. Ideally the ram air feeds would also need Halon nozzles, as well as the 'static' air in the engine compartment. Don't know if the concentration in the ram-air would be sufficient to quench.  I would think nozzles aimed at the FI distributor block and other usual suspects for an engine compartment fire would be appropriate. I would be interested in seeing your nozzle outlay.
Yes, this one ended well for the pilot, not so much his bird.
Mark Magee
N34XL
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net<mailto:velocity_pilot at verizon.net>> wrote:
I am a little bit paranoid about something like that happening, so I have the heat sensors, and a 3 pound halon bottle plumbed to the engine compartment-might even add camera for the inside of the compartment - at least the pilot got out OK

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>] On Behalf Of nmflyer1 at aol.com<mailto:nmflyer1 at aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:52 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: REFLECTOR: Ouch

Back from OSH last night. This morning had to go help clean up this sad situation. Cozy Mk III with a torbo rotary engine. Smelled oil and headed back on flt #6. Unfortunately, as he was turning off the runway, things gor worse. At least he is fine.

Kurt

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