REFLECTOR: Ouch

Mon Jul 30 18:30:37 CDT 2012

I support Mark's comments (ex-Navy also), however here in Aust we can also
still use BCF (also known as Halon 1211) for "critical applications" in
aviation, military etc - very common still in many cockpits.  Very
effective for the classes of fire you might expect in a cockpit.  Won't
kill you either unless you take a direct lung full of it.  Banned for all
other applications.

Paul Folkes
XL-RG  VH-VVX
building but a loong way to go!
On 31 July 2012 05:37, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Reiff,
> There are different formulations of Halon, run the Wikipedia on Halon:
> Halon 10001 through Halon 2600, fifteen different formulations listed in
> the article. I can't remember what flavor we used in the Navy, but you
> definitely would not want even a whiff of that product. I think we used the
> Halon 2402, the the Russians recently killed 20 and injured (brain dead?)
> 21 more with an accidental activation of Halon 2402 in a submarine.
>
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dibromotetrafluoroethane
>
> For most cockpit fires a CO2 should work fine. Directing the CO2 to the
> fire is key. Halon is a 'flooding' methodology of firefighting, such as
> flooding the entire space (enclosure) where the fire is. Knowing what they
> told me about the Halon we used in the Navy, I'd be wary of cockpit use.
> Even if it is only a chemical-cousin of the potent formula we used.
>
> Mark B. Magee
> N34XL
> Sent from IPhone 4
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Reiff Lorenz <Reiff at lorenz.com> wrote:
>
> ** **
>
> >> So what is one to use for fire in the cockpit?<<****
>
> ** **
>
> Kevin,****
>
> ** **
>
> For a cockpit fire, I'd still use Halon. It is lethal in high
> concentrations because it displaces the oxygen. Also, getting hit directly
> with a blast of it can freeze skin quickly. CO2 has these same problems.
> There are respiratory and cardiac symptoms associated with high
> concentrations of Halon, but considering how effective it is, I'd risk a
> transient respiratory condition when faced with a fire in flight.****
>
> ** **
>
> From the Halon 1301 MSDS:****
>
> ** **
>
> *Respiratory Protection: *Not normally required under conditions of use
> as a portable fire extinguisher. In oxygen deficient atmospheres, use a
> self-contained breathing apparatus, as an air purifying respirator will not
> provide protection.****
>
> ** **
>
> The manufacture and import of Halon has been banned by most developed
> nations. Not because it is a health hazard, but because it has extreme
> effects on the ozone layer. All Halon products currently on the market are
> filled from supplies manufactured before 1994. Much of it is recycled from
> old fire suppression systems in decommissioned aircraft or industrial
> facilities.****
>
> ** **
>
> Here is more than you ever wanted to know:****
>
> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/qa.html****
>
> ** **
>
> Hope none of us ever needs to use it!****
>
> ** **
>
> *Reiff Lorenz, Dayton, OH*
>
> Velocity XL-RG, 34% complete****
>
> Currently working on: Installing sump tank, running fuel & vent lines****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *The Velocity Builders' Virtual Hangar<https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=d3a73e710c719626dd353d3b101be90f>.
> Available 24/7 for builders and owners:*
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>
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> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Kevin Baker
> *Sent:* Monday, July 30, 2012 1:11 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Cc:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch****
>
> ** **
>
> So what is one to use for fire in the cockpit?****
>
> Kevin
>
> .****
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com> wrote:**
> **
>
> Correct. We had to muster (inventory) our people prior to flooding a
> (ship) engineering space (engine room). Any personnel in the engineering
> space flooded with Halon to quench a fire were written off as dead. Either
> the fire killed them, but if not the Halon certainly would. Fuel fed fires
> are nasty beasts and not easily controlled. Nothing better than Halon,
> maybe that's why it's not banned yet (EPA).****
>
> I don't see a problem flooding a Velocity engine compartment with Halon
> either in-flight or on the ground. Great thing is cleanup is a snap as it
> deploys as a gas.
>
> Mark B. Magee****
>
> N34XL****
>
> Sent from IPhone 4****
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Grover McNair <grover at mcnairperformance.com>
> wrote:****
>
> The danger with Halon is the risk of breathing it in. That should not be a
> problem if it is not dispersed in the cockpit.****
>
> Grover McNair
>
> Sent from my iPhone****
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:40 AM, "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
> wrote:****
>
> Halon is still available- got mine from Summit Racing I think. I guess the
> potential of possibly damaging a few ozone molecules is outweighed by loss
> of life thankfully…****
>
> I have my nozzles pointing at the intake area/fuel rails, and the
> turbocharger area- my top intakes feed my oil & PSRU coolers through scat
> tubing, and the turbo intercooler on the other side, so it would be
> difficult to get any going in there, but also unlikely that the fire would
> be there either. I think that 3 pounds will be enough to extinguish any
> fire as long as the cowling is not breached by the time I pull the release,
> those little cameras are pretty inexpensive these days, so if I get a temp
> alarm back there, I can flip it on and see what is what.****
>
> At least in the velocity an engine fire would not come into the pilot’s
> area of the cabin very quickly, although, aileron control might be
> affected- or maybe not- I think that the problem is that the liner melts
> and when it cools, it locks up the ailerons, if it is still hot might be
> OK, would be interesting to see if Teleflex has ever tested that……****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *nmflyer1 at aol.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 30, 2012 12:16 AM
> *To:* reflector at tvbf.org
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch****
>
>  ****
>
> I like the idea of a fire suppression system as well. In talking with the
> pilot, he didn't even know he had a fire until he landed. The engine quit
> and the flames started just as he turned off the end of the runway. All he
> knew is that he smelled some "hot oil", then started down for the airport.
> A witness watching the landing said there was not even any smoke until the
> end of the runway, then a second or two later.. fire.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I was there talking with the FAA as they did the inspection of the
> wreckage. Only thing they found was some questionable fittings that were
> loose. They acknowledged that the looseness could have come from the heat
> of the fire... or been there prior. Fittings right next to the loose ones
> were tight... so that leads to some doubts on the tightness of the oil
> fittings next to the turbo. ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Kurt****
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Sun, Jul 29, 2012 8:56 pm
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch****
>
> Hi Alex,
> You are a man after my own heart. There is little worse for a pilot than
> an in-flight fire. They're quite rare, but might ruin a whole day. We used
> Halon extensively in the Navy, unbelievably effective. I thought Halon fire
> suppressant been outlawed but just checked and found them still available.
> I may follow your lead and have a Halon bottle trained on my engine
> compartment with heat sensors. I'll have to study this: the ram air for the
> cylinders does present a problem with any fire-suppressant flooding
> technique for an aircraft engine compartment. Ideally the ram air feeds
> would also need Halon nozzles, as well as the 'static' air in the engine
> compartment. Don't know if the concentration in the ram-air would be
> sufficient to quench.  I would think nozzles aimed at the FI distributor
> block and other usual suspects for an engine compartment fire would be
> appropriate. I would be interested in seeing your nozzle outlay.
> Yes, this one ended well for the pilot, not so much his bird.
> Mark Magee
> N34XL****
>
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
> wrote:****
>
> I am a little bit paranoid about something like that happening, so I have
> the heat sensors, and a 3 pound halon bottle plumbed to the engine
> compartment-might even add camera for the inside of the compartment - at
> least the pilot got out OK****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *nmflyer1 at aol.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:52 PM
> *To:* reflector at tvbf.org
> *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Ouch****
>
>  ****
>
> Back from OSH last night. This morning had to go help clean up this sad
> situation. Cozy Mk III with a torbo rotary engine. Smelled oil and headed
> back on flt #6. Unfortunately, as he was turning off the runway, things gor
> worse. At least he is fine.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Kurt   ****
>
>
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