REFLECTOR: Ouch

Grover McNair grover at mcnairperformance.com
Mon Jul 30 13:52:45 CDT 2012


I carry a small portable co2 extinguisher. They can be bought just about
anywhere like Walmart, Lowes or Home Depot.

Grover

 

  _____  

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Reiff Lorenz
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:39 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

 

 

>> So what is one to use for fire in the cockpit?<<

 

Kevin,

 

For a cockpit fire, I'd still use Halon. It is lethal in high concentrations
because it displaces the oxygen. Also, getting hit directly with a blast of
it can freeze skin quickly. CO2 has these same problems. There are
respiratory and cardiac symptoms associated with high concentrations of
Halon, but considering how effective it is, I'd risk a transient respiratory
condition when faced with a fire in flight.

 

>From the Halon 1301 MSDS:

 

Respiratory Protection: Not normally required under conditions of use as a
portable fire extinguisher. In oxygen deficient atmospheres, use a
self-contained breathing apparatus, as an air purifying respirator will not
provide protection.

 

The manufacture and import of Halon has been banned by most developed
nations. Not because it is a health hazard, but because it has extreme
effects on the ozone layer. All Halon products currently on the market are
filled from supplies manufactured before 1994. Much of it is recycled from
old fire suppression systems in decommissioned aircraft or industrial
facilities.

 

Here is more than you ever wanted to know:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/qa.html

 

Hope none of us ever needs to use it!

 

Reiff Lorenz, Dayton, OH

Velocity XL-RG, 34% complete

Currently working on: Installing sump tank, running fuel & vent lines

 

 

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<https://liveconferencepro.com/guest/loginguest.php?id=d3a73e710c719626dd353
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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Kevin Baker
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:11 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

 

So what is one to use for fire in the cockpit?

Kevin

.


On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com> wrote:

Correct. We had to muster (inventory) our people prior to flooding a (ship)
engineering space (engine room). Any personnel in the engineering space
flooded with Halon to quench a fire were written off as dead. Either the
fire killed them, but if not the Halon certainly would. Fuel fed fires are
nasty beasts and not easily controlled. Nothing better than Halon, maybe
that's why it's not banned yet (EPA).

I don't see a problem flooding a Velocity engine compartment with Halon
either in-flight or on the ground. Great thing is cleanup is a snap as it
deploys as a gas. 

Mark B. Magee

N34XL

Sent from IPhone 4


On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Grover McNair <grover at mcnairperformance.com>
wrote:

The danger with Halon is the risk of breathing it in. That should not be a
problem if it is not dispersed in the cockpit.

Grover McNair

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:40 AM, "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
wrote:

Halon is still available- got mine from Summit Racing I think. I guess the
potential of possibly damaging a few ozone molecules is outweighed by loss
of life thankfully.

I have my nozzles pointing at the intake area/fuel rails, and the
turbocharger area- my top intakes feed my oil & PSRU coolers through scat
tubing, and the turbo intercooler on the other side, so it would be
difficult to get any going in there, but also unlikely that the fire would
be there either. I think that 3 pounds will be enough to extinguish any fire
as long as the cowling is not breached by the time I pull the release, those
little cameras are pretty inexpensive these days, so if I get a temp alarm
back there, I can flip it on and see what is what.

At least in the velocity an engine fire would not come into the pilot's area
of the cabin very quickly, although, aileron control might be affected- or
maybe not- I think that the problem is that the liner melts and when it
cools, it locks up the ailerons, if it is still hot might be OK, would be
interesting to see if Teleflex has ever tested that..

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
<mailto:%5bmailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org%5d>  On Behalf Of
nmflyer1 at aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:16 AM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

 

I like the idea of a fire suppression system as well. In talking with the
pilot, he didn't even know he had a fire until he landed. The engine quit
and the flames started just as he turned off the end of the runway. All he
knew is that he smelled some "hot oil", then started down for the airport. A
witness watching the landing said there was not even any smoke until the end
of the runway, then a second or two later.. fire.  

 

I was there talking with the FAA as they did the inspection of the wreckage.
Only thing they found was some questionable fittings that were loose. They
acknowledged that the looseness could have come from the heat of the fire...
or been there prior. Fittings right next to the loose ones were tight... so
that leads to some doubts on the tightness of the oil fittings next to the
turbo. 

 

 

Kurt





-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sun, Jul 29, 2012 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Ouch

Hi Alex,
You are a man after my own heart. There is little worse for a pilot than an
in-flight fire. They're quite rare, but might ruin a whole day. We used
Halon extensively in the Navy, unbelievably effective. I thought Halon fire
suppressant been outlawed but just checked and found them still available. I
may follow your lead and have a Halon bottle trained on my engine
compartment with heat sensors. I'll have to study this: the ram air for the
cylinders does present a problem with any fire-suppressant flooding
technique for an aircraft engine compartment. Ideally the ram air feeds
would also need Halon nozzles, as well as the 'static' air in the engine
compartment. Don't know if the concentration in the ram-air would be
sufficient to quench.  I would think nozzles aimed at the FI distributor
block and other usual suspects for an engine compartment fire would be
appropriate. I would be interested in seeing your nozzle outlay.
Yes, this one ended well for the pilot, not so much his bird.
Mark Magee
N34XL

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
wrote:

I am a little bit paranoid about something like that happening, so I have
the heat sensors, and a 3 pound halon bottle plumbed to the engine
compartment-might even add camera for the inside of the compartment - at
least the pilot got out OK

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of nmflyer1 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:52 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR: Ouch

 

Back from OSH last night. This morning had to go help clean up this sad
situation. Cozy Mk III with a torbo rotary engine. Smelled oil and headed
back on flt #6. Unfortunately, as he was turning off the runway, things gor
worse. At least he is fine.  

 

Kurt   


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