REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

Dave T Nelson dtnelson at us.ibm.com
Tue Jan 31 15:34:45 CST 2012


That's good to hear, Andy.  I wonder what kind of testing was performed?

Dave

Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering


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  |reflector-request at tvbf.org                                                                                                                        |
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  |reflector at tvbf.org                                                                                                                                |
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  |01/31/2012 03:18 PM                                                                                                                               |
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  |Reflector Digest, Vol 82, Issue 122                                                                                                               |
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  |reflector-bounces at tvbf.org                                                                                                                        |
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ? (Andrew Millin)


----- Message from Andrew Millin <amillin at sbcglobal.net> on Tue, 31 Jan
2012 13:11:01 -0800 (PST) -----
                                                           
      To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list       
          <reflector at tvbf.org>                             
                                                           
 Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or            
          handpumps ?                                      
                                                           


Hey Dave,

I do appreciate the concern and I do agree with you.  I would never have
just decided on my own to use the West system.  I called the Velocity
factory before I used it on the plane.  I was told that it was acceptable.
Not out to start a big discussion on what is and what isn't acceptable.  I
just wanted to let you know that I checked before using.

Andy

From: Dave T Nelson <dtnelson at us.ibm.com>
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Sent: Tue, January 31, 2012 3:49:17 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

Andy... gotta say... and with all possible respect...

Using West on anything structural is an absolute no-no at least among the
EZ crowd.  Without complete testing, it should be a no-no in the Velocity
crowd too.

SafeTpoxy was tested completely and thoroughly by Burt.  EZpoxy was a
direct replacement.  If you use West for structure, you are going out on an
untested limb, and the only way you'll know how far you've gone is when
something really bad happens.  Please don't do that!  There was at least
one communal experience in this among the EZ crowd... two builders in
Brazil that built their Cozys with locally available "equivalent" epoxy.
One of them, Firmino Campos, suffered a structural failure in flight but
was able to land the airplane without injury.  You might not be so lucky.

This is like one of many, many decisions one has to make while building...
all of which boil down to this question - how much of a test pilot do you
want to be?

Dave

Dave T. Nelson
T/L 553-4327, Voice 507-253-4327, Fax 507-253-3648
Program Director, ISC ECAT NPI & Test Engineering

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re:  Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ? (Bob Jackson (Jax Tech))

----- Message from "Bob Jackson \(Jax Tech\)" <bobj at jaxtechllc.com> on Tue,
31 Jan 2012 13:09:05 -0500 -----
                                                             
      To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"     
          <reflector at tvbf.org>                               
                                                             
 Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?  
                                                             

Good observations and collection of tips, Andy!

Bob


From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Andy Millin
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:45 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

Yes, you could use West System to build the whole plane.  The reason we
don’t is that it costs more and even the slow hardener is must faster than
the EZ-84 we use.  When doing the larger layups the longer work time is
required.

If you get the fast hardener, you’ll want to have everything in place
within 45 minutes of initial mix.  For a larger layup that will require
good prep.  If it is 80 degrees or more, you might have 30 minutes.  You’ll
want to avoid larger batches as it is kicking harder and can exotherm on
you.  I have had batches of micro exotherm with the West.  I consider this
to be the nature of the beast, not really a downside.

I used it for most of the completion tasks and by then I was greatful for
the speed.  With West I was able to complete a series of 3 layups in the
same day.  That would have been 3 days minimum with EZ-84.

BTW, if you are doing fill work, you might want to look into West System
410, Microlight Faring Filler.  Use it like micro AND spot putty.  It
spreads much better.  It sands better.  It feathers out beautifully.  It
costs a more than micro, but … time vs. money.  A 5 oz container is
approximately a gallon by volume.  Make sure you work it well on a booger
board before you apply it; want the bubbles out (same with micro).

Another tip.  FWIW.  I stopped using sand paper for layup prep as well.  I
was directed to 3M maroon Scotchbrite pads.  Again, they cost more, but
they will get to the bottom of the weave almost immediately.  You’ll get a
great scuff in a fraction of the time.  Buy the whole box at a premium auto
paint supply store.

Andy

==========================
Andy Millin
amillin at sbcglobal.net

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Sieders
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 5:04 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

Well I guess the consensus told me he story that I was leaning towards.
Andy’s idea about switching to West Systems product is something that I am
going to research. I still have to turn the airplane over and lay down a
layer on the top strake and the main spar. Could I use the West systems for
that as well ? (before I reinvent the wheel ?)

Thanks all for the response. Sorry about the two emails, my computer
crashed while sending my first email and when reflector didn’t send it back
I concluded that it was not received and resend it, finding out afterwards
Reflector had issues of its own.

gr. Patrick


From: Alex Balic
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:05 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

The Michaels unit is great when you need to mix a lot of epoxy at a time,
or when you are working on a lot of layups that you are always needing the
resin for- most of this work is early on in the building process. I used
the Michaels pump with good success when building the flying surfaces and
fuselage, but then it sat for a while, and got gummed up- I took it apart,
and cleaned it up, then used it a couple of times before it sat and got
gummed up again, so I just tossed it and started using a scale to measure
the resin for all of the occasional small jobs I had.

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of John Dibble
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:42 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

I second that.  I've never used a pump.  I use a scale that measures to
0.01 gram.  I can mix as little as 5 grams with high precision for those
really little jobs.
John
Jack Prock wrote:
      Hi Patrick, I have the expensive Michaels pump and it works great
      when moving a lot of epoxy through it, like when I was buildingmy
      wings and canard. But, if you aren't using a lot of epoxy, the pump
      tends to get gummed up.After I finished the big pieces, over time the
      epoxy tended to get sludgy and hard to move through the pump.I spent
      more time cleaning it than using it. If you only have small parts,
      just buy a good electronic scale and use hand pumping to measure
      outthe ratio. This works fine and you won't waste time with all that
      cleaning. My epoxy pump is now cleanedand empty and sitting in
      storage, while I finish the rest of the plane. Jack
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Patrick Sieders
      To: reflector at tvbf.org
      Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:07 PM
      Subject: REFLECTOR: Michaels Epoxy Pump or handpumps ?

      Hello All,
      I would like some input into what epoxy pumps to buy. I know the
      difference, my question is more about if it’s worth it looking at the
      state of my project.
      Some may remember that I took over Tom Tolton’s XL5 Fg. Since the
      airplane hull is pretty much done, I am looking at some smaller epoxy
      projects to finish it up.
      So should I buy the more expensive Michaels ratio pump or could I
      suffice with the handpumps ?
      Take a look at my project as it sits in my garage right now (
      http://www.sieders.com/sieders/velocity/index.htm ) and I would love
      to hear your opinion.
      Thanks,
      Patrick Sieders
      Nashville TN USA
      XL5-FG


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