REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 82, Issue 55 Fuel Cap Issue
Douglas Holub
douglas.holub at gmail.com
Sat Jan 14 20:59:16 CST 2012
Thanks for the slip tip.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Riley" <the_rileys1 at verizon.net>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 82, Issue 55 Fuel Cap Issue
>I had a poor seal on one of my fuel caps and happened to be 100 miles out
>over the Atlantic when it happened. One tank simply stopped draining while
>the other one fed just fine. I got down to about 5 gallons in the tank
>that was draining. I decided that I didn't want to find out right there if
>the other tank would start feeding the engine when the one tank went dry. I
>put it in a slip with the full tank on the uphill side. It took only about
>2 minutes like that to even out the tanks.
>
> When I landed, I cleaned up some primer and grit on the O rings, greased
> them and they then worked fine. With the caps in such a low pressure
> area, it doesn't take much of a vacuum to keep the tanks from feeding
> evenly. Scott Swing suggested simply orbiting over my home airport to
> confirm that the other tank would start draining if this ever happened
> again, but I'm chicken.
>
> Mark
> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:49 AM, reflector-request at tvbf.org wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Engine Starting (Scott Derrick)
>> 2. No management fuel systems (vance atkinson)
>> 3. Re: No management fuel systems (John Dibble)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 07:19:25 -0700
>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Engine Starting
>> Message-ID: <yaew3nb0qvvbpw63qnlx94vm.1326550765960 at email.android.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> I've a plasma III and an impulse may. I start with both. The plasma can
>> be used down to about 5 volts. I think the electro-air may miss fire at
>> a higher voltage, 8-9? volts.
>>
>> Douglas Holub <douglas.holub at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've got one Plasma III and a magneto without an impulse coupling (TDC).
>>> I
>>> always start with just the electronic ignition.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mike Wilson" <iflylb at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:11 PM
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Engine Starting
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can someone please remind me the pitfalls of starting my velocity on
>>>> the
>>>> electronic ignition.
>>>>
>>>> My bird has the Lycoming IO-540 (300hp) and one standard bendex mag and
>>>> one electro aire.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know that John has explained this before but for some reason I can
>>>> not
>>>> login to my account and look over the archives.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mike
>>>> N99KT
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:48:24 -0600
>> From: vance atkinson <nostromo56 at tx.rr.com>
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: No management fuel systems
>> Message-ID: <4F1195B8.7040900 at tx.rr.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> For the Velocity builders,
>>
>> In response to my letter to Burt Rutan about the T'eed fuel lines, his
>> response is written unedited below.
>> Vance Atkinson
>> /
>> "Vance,/
>> /No, the fuel will not jump an air gap to go overboard. It will dump
>> out the cap only if you start with more than half fuel total. If you
>> have both tanks feeding one sump, any change in vent pressure will
>> transfer fuel to the tank that is the lowest pressure. If you have only
>> 1/4 fuel you can end up with all the fuel in one tank and air in the
>> sump./
>> //
>> /
>> /
>> /I am very concerned about your statement "some fuel pumps" in the line.
>> Fuel systems often do things not expected. Check Part 23 FAA regs for
>> certification. You cannot certify a system that pumps fuel from more
>> than one tank at a time./
>> //
>> /
>> /
>> /The origional POC volkswagon-powered EZ had an unusual system, somewhat
>> like you describe. It worked for a long time without problems, but
>> failed the engine over Phoenix on the way home from Oshkosh./
>> //
>> /
>> /
>> /If you can fly without a cap on one side and still use all the fuel, I
>> would be very surprised./
>> /
>> /
>> /Burt"
>> /
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:49:16 -0600
>> From: John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com>
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: No management fuel systems
>> Message-ID: <4F1195EC.FED8633F at bluefrog.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Maybe that's why the builder of my plane installed over flow vents in
>> each tank that face forward which pressurizes the tanks. Of course
>> valves are not entirely safe either (John Denver). Doesn't the
>> alternate vent prevent this problem? Anyone have experience with a
>> leaking fuel cap?
>>
>> John
>>
>> Lou Stedman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am a member of CSA and received this notice today. Is this something
>>> that we Velocity drivers should be concerned with? Does the sump tank
>>> take away this problem?
>>> CSA Article Correction
>>> Terry Schubert CSA Newsletter Editor
>>> CSA # 105 January 2012, page 23, No Management Fuel System article
>>> correction.Subsequent to January 2012 CSA issue mailing, I received
>>> e-mails from both Burt Rutan and Mike Melvill. They both felt the No
>>> Management Fuel System was potentially dangerous. The common sump fuel
>>> system fed by both tanks simultaneously could only be safely used on a
>>> gravity system without a fuel pump.I had no idea that this fuel system
>>> was viewed as being so dangerous. I stand corrected. The No Management
>>> Fuel System author is an IA and has built two Long-EZs and flown a
>>> couple thousand hours in them. Another highly experienced Cozy builder
>>> I checked with has about the same time in his Cozy with a similar
>>> system.Communication from Burt and Mike follow and explain the reason
>>> for concern.***************Email from Burt RutanTerry and Mike,I do
>>> read the CSA newsletters to stay in touch a bit, even in
>>> retirement.What I saw in #105 may represent a serious safety issue. A
>>> builder is recommending a "No Management Fuel system" by teeing
>>> together both fuel tanks. While this may work ok for a while, it would
>>> be dangerous if a fuel cap is lost or is not installed after fueling
>>> OR if there is a leak in a fuel cap seal. What happens is that all the
>>> fuel is transferred in flight to one side and dumps out the cap that
>>> is missing or is leaking. This can cause engine failure.For reference,
>>> the VariEze had the "both" fuel system, with a tee at the bottom of
>>> the fuselage. It works ok on a Cessna 150 where the tee is a full 4 ft
>>> below the tanks. However, if the tee is only several inches below the
>>> tanks, a small difference in tank vent pressure can put air to the tee
>>> and fail the engine. There were several Varieze engine failures due to
>>> loss of fuel cap, or leak of a fuel cap. For the LongEz I designed a
>>> much safer fuel system, with sumps that assured a low amount of
>>> unusable fuel and made sure the fuel could not swap sides or vent
>>> overboard.Burt***********Email from Mike MelvillTerry, Burt is not
>>> kidding about this. In a Long-EZ/Cozy the fuel tanks MUST be switched
>>> separately, and must separately feed the engine. Teeing them together
>>> is dangerous as hell! This teeing idea only works on gravity fed
>>> systems with no fuel pump, can you say Cessna 15, C172 etc. Look
>>> around---all GA planes with two or more fuel tanks plus an engine
>>> driven fuel pump have a fuel tank selector valve just as the RAF plans
>>> call out. Do not ever change this or you will eventually find yourself
>>> out of gas with one tank full, and no way to get to that fuel. It has
>>> happened before to several EZ folk! Why is it that we never learn from
>>> lessons learned? Please put a stop to this stupidity!The big point
>>> really is this; Aside from high wing, gravity fed planes like the
>>> Cessna 150, there are NO certified aircraft with two fuel tanks or
>>> more PLUS a fuel pump, that don???t use a fuel tank selector valve!
>>> None! The reason the FAA insists on a fuel selector valve in such a
>>> plane is this: if a fuel cap is accidentally left off or has a leaky
>>> ???O??? ring seal, or for some reason comes off in flight, the result
>>> is always the same. You will run out of fuel with one tank full!! This
>>> is due to the fact that the fuel caps are generally on top of a wing
>>> where there is low pressure in flight due to the airfoil providing
>>> lift. When a fuel cap is missing the fuel is sucked out of this fuel
>>> tank. With no fuel valve, the fuel in the tank with a cap, is drawn
>>> across the ???T??? at the low point (where the fuel selector used to
>>> be) into the tank without a cap. The engine continues to run until the
>>> tank still equipped with a fuel cap is empty. Then you are out of gas
>>> and the engine quits in spite of the fact that you have an essentially
>>> full tank of fuel in the tank with NO cap!! The fuel pump starts
>>> sucking air from the now empty tank with the cap, and the low pressure
>>> above the tank with NO cap won???t allow the fuel pump to deliver the
>>> remaining fuel (usually a full tank) to the engine. Having a fuel tank
>>> selector valve in a Long-EZ (as well as in all Cherokees, all Cessnas
>>> bigger than C150???s & on and on) prevents this problem from
>>> happening. The bottom line is this: If you have more than one fuel
>>> tank AND you have a mechanical engine driven fuel pump, you must have
>>> a fuel tank selector valve!This exact scenario happens to Cessna
>>> 150???s as well as to Variezes if they loose one fuel cap! In a
>>> gravity fed fuel system such as C150 & Varieze with no fuel selector,
>>> this problem can???t be fixed. That is why it is so important to
>>> remember to replace the fuel caps on gravity fed planes!) Wes and
>>> Milly Gardner had this happen to them and I believe we talked about
>>> this back then in the CP.
>>> Mike
>>>
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>>
>>> Lou
>> Stedman
>>
>>> Velocity SEFG
>>
>>> N7044Q
>>
>>> Olean, NY
>>>
>>
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
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>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 82, Issue 55
>> *****************************************
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