REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 82, Issue 55 Fuel Cap Issue
Mark Riley
the_rileys1 at verizon.net
Sat Jan 14 18:59:39 CST 2012
I had a poor seal on one of my fuel caps and happened to be 100 miles out over the Atlantic when it happened. One tank simply stopped draining while the other one fed just fine. I got down to about 5 gallons in the tank that was draining. I decided that I didn't want to find out right there if the other tank would start feeding the engine when the one tank went dry. I put it in a slip with the full tank on the uphill side. It took only about 2 minutes like that to even out the tanks.
When I landed, I cleaned up some primer and grit on the O rings, greased them and they then worked fine. With the caps in such a low pressure area, it doesn't take much of a vacuum to keep the tanks from feeding evenly. Scott Swing suggested simply orbiting over my home airport to confirm that the other tank would start draining if this ever happened again, but I'm chicken.
Mark
On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:49 AM, reflector-request at tvbf.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Engine Starting (Scott Derrick)
> 2. No management fuel systems (vance atkinson)
> 3. Re: No management fuel systems (John Dibble)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 07:19:25 -0700
> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Engine Starting
> Message-ID: <yaew3nb0qvvbpw63qnlx94vm.1326550765960 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I've a plasma III and an impulse may. I start with both. The plasma can be used down to about 5 volts. I think the electro-air may miss fire at a higher voltage, 8-9? volts.
>
> Douglas Holub <douglas.holub at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've got one Plasma III and a magneto without an impulse coupling (TDC). I
>> always start with just the electronic ignition.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Wilson" <iflylb at gmail.com>
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:11 PM
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Engine Starting
>>
>>
>>> Can someone please remind me the pitfalls of starting my velocity on the
>>> electronic ignition.
>>>
>>> My bird has the Lycoming IO-540 (300hp) and one standard bendex mag and
>>> one electro aire.
>>>
>>>
>>> I know that John has explained this before but for some reason I can not
>>> login to my account and look over the archives.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Mike
>>> N99KT
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:48:24 -0600
> From: vance atkinson <nostromo56 at tx.rr.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: REFLECTOR: No management fuel systems
> Message-ID: <4F1195B8.7040900 at tx.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> For the Velocity builders,
>
> In response to my letter to Burt Rutan about the T'eed fuel lines, his
> response is written unedited below.
> Vance Atkinson
> /
> "Vance,/
> /No, the fuel will not jump an air gap to go overboard. It will dump
> out the cap only if you start with more than half fuel total. If you
> have both tanks feeding one sump, any change in vent pressure will
> transfer fuel to the tank that is the lowest pressure. If you have only
> 1/4 fuel you can end up with all the fuel in one tank and air in the sump./
> //
> /
> /
> /I am very concerned about your statement "some fuel pumps" in the line.
> Fuel systems often do things not expected. Check Part 23 FAA regs for
> certification. You cannot certify a system that pumps fuel from more
> than one tank at a time./
> //
> /
> /
> /The origional POC volkswagon-powered EZ had an unusual system, somewhat
> like you describe. It worked for a long time without problems, but
> failed the engine over Phoenix on the way home from Oshkosh./
> //
> /
> /
> /If you can fly without a cap on one side and still use all the fuel, I
> would be very surprised./
> /
> /
> /Burt"
> /
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> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:49:16 -0600
> From: John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: No management fuel systems
> Message-ID: <4F1195EC.FED8633F at bluefrog.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Maybe that's why the builder of my plane installed over flow vents in
> each tank that face forward which pressurizes the tanks. Of course
> valves are not entirely safe either (John Denver). Doesn't the
> alternate vent prevent this problem? Anyone have experience with a
> leaking fuel cap?
>
> John
>
> Lou Stedman wrote:
>
>>
>> I am a member of CSA and received this notice today. Is this something
>> that we Velocity drivers should be concerned with? Does the sump tank
>> take away this problem?
>> CSA Article Correction
>> Terry Schubert CSA Newsletter Editor
>> CSA # 105 January 2012, page 23, No Management Fuel System article
>> correction.Subsequent to January 2012 CSA issue mailing, I received
>> e-mails from both Burt Rutan and Mike Melvill. They both felt the No
>> Management Fuel System was potentially dangerous. The common sump fuel
>> system fed by both tanks simultaneously could only be safely used on a
>> gravity system without a fuel pump.I had no idea that this fuel system
>> was viewed as being so dangerous. I stand corrected. The No Management
>> Fuel System author is an IA and has built two Long-EZs and flown a
>> couple thousand hours in them. Another highly experienced Cozy builder
>> I checked with has about the same time in his Cozy with a similar
>> system.Communication from Burt and Mike follow and explain the reason
>> for concern.***************Email from Burt RutanTerry and Mike,I do
>> read the CSA newsletters to stay in touch a bit, even in
>> retirement.What I saw in #105 may represent a serious safety issue. A
>> builder is recommending a "No Management Fuel system" by teeing
>> together both fuel tanks. While this may work ok for a while, it would
>> be dangerous if a fuel cap is lost or is not installed after fueling
>> OR if there is a leak in a fuel cap seal. What happens is that all the
>> fuel is transferred in flight to one side and dumps out the cap that
>> is missing or is leaking. This can cause engine failure.For reference,
>> the VariEze had the "both" fuel system, with a tee at the bottom of
>> the fuselage. It works ok on a Cessna 150 where the tee is a full 4 ft
>> below the tanks. However, if the tee is only several inches below the
>> tanks, a small difference in tank vent pressure can put air to the tee
>> and fail the engine. There were several Varieze engine failures due to
>> loss of fuel cap, or leak of a fuel cap. For the LongEz I designed a
>> much safer fuel system, with sumps that assured a low amount of
>> unusable fuel and made sure the fuel could not swap sides or vent
>> overboard.Burt***********Email from Mike MelvillTerry, Burt is not
>> kidding about this. In a Long-EZ/Cozy the fuel tanks MUST be switched
>> separately, and must separately feed the engine. Teeing them together
>> is dangerous as hell! This teeing idea only works on gravity fed
>> systems with no fuel pump, can you say Cessna 15, C172 etc. Look
>> around---all GA planes with two or more fuel tanks plus an engine
>> driven fuel pump have a fuel tank selector valve just as the RAF plans
>> call out. Do not ever change this or you will eventually find yourself
>> out of gas with one tank full, and no way to get to that fuel. It has
>> happened before to several EZ folk! Why is it that we never learn from
>> lessons learned? Please put a stop to this stupidity!The big point
>> really is this; Aside from high wing, gravity fed planes like the
>> Cessna 150, there are NO certified aircraft with two fuel tanks or
>> more PLUS a fuel pump, that don???t use a fuel tank selector valve!
>> None! The reason the FAA insists on a fuel selector valve in such a
>> plane is this: if a fuel cap is accidentally left off or has a leaky
>> ???O??? ring seal, or for some reason comes off in flight, the result
>> is always the same. You will run out of fuel with one tank full!! This
>> is due to the fact that the fuel caps are generally on top of a wing
>> where there is low pressure in flight due to the airfoil providing
>> lift. When a fuel cap is missing the fuel is sucked out of this fuel
>> tank. With no fuel valve, the fuel in the tank with a cap, is drawn
>> across the ???T??? at the low point (where the fuel selector used to
>> be) into the tank without a cap. The engine continues to run until the
>> tank still equipped with a fuel cap is empty. Then you are out of gas
>> and the engine quits in spite of the fact that you have an essentially
>> full tank of fuel in the tank with NO cap!! The fuel pump starts
>> sucking air from the now empty tank with the cap, and the low pressure
>> above the tank with NO cap won???t allow the fuel pump to deliver the
>> remaining fuel (usually a full tank) to the engine. Having a fuel tank
>> selector valve in a Long-EZ (as well as in all Cherokees, all Cessnas
>> bigger than C150???s & on and on) prevents this problem from
>> happening. The bottom line is this: If you have more than one fuel
>> tank AND you have a mechanical engine driven fuel pump, you must have
>> a fuel tank selector valve!This exact scenario happens to Cessna
>> 150???s as well as to Variezes if they loose one fuel cap! In a
>> gravity fed fuel system such as C150 & Varieze with no fuel selector,
>> this problem can???t be fixed. That is why it is so important to
>> remember to replace the fuel caps on gravity fed planes!) Wes and
>> Milly Gardner had this happen to them and I believe we talked about
>> this back then in the CP.
>> Mike
>>
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>> Lou
> Stedman
>
>> Velocity SEFG
>
>> N7044Q
>
>> Olean, NY
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