REFLECTOR: Fwd: How to fuel up and live to tell aboutit.(LaurenceCoen)

Dennis Martin dennis.doc at gmail.com
Tue Feb 7 10:29:37 CST 2012


Kurt,

Perhaps a decade ago, (Velocity Views?) I recall one Velocity that went up
in flames in the hangar because of a static induced fire.

Based on all of this discussion, I assume it means we should never fill
tanks from our plastic 5 gallon containers, which I've done on several
occasions.

Of all the fueling options discussed, I like your 8 step strategy. Where do
I buy the anti-static mat?

Perhaps similar to your setup, Kurt, I've got SS braided hoses running from
the tanks to the sump, and they have either plastic or rubber inside.
Braided hoses also run to my fueI pumps and filters. I also have a flexible
Earls hose running from the fuel regulator to the engine.

Dennis

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 7:22 PM, <nmflyer1 at aol.com> wrote:

>
>  Another wrench in the works:  My aluminum fuel lines don't go
> "hardlined" to the engine. I have some rubber connector lines in there for
> isolation, maintenance, etc. Also, If you have the fittings sealed up tight
> with sealant, you may not have as good of a ground as you think.. even IF
> you are hardlined all the way from the tanks to the engine.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Velocity XLFG <VelocityXL at fastmail.fm>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Sat, Feb 4, 2012 5:11 pm
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell
> aboutit.(LaurenceCoen)
>
> I sorry I am now very confused if a ground to a plastic container is need
> and the plastic is no conductive what is
> the point. Seems to me this means as long  as the tires are on the ground
> there should be no need for grounding.
> Which is not true. Contact with the fuel with a conductive material is
> required Right? So the aluminum  Fuel line
> running  from the tank to the engine  Exhaust pipe to ground and you are
> fully grounded  Right?
>
> Ron
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sbjknox
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 8:21 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell
> aboutit.(LaurenceCoen)
>
> From below:  "No laws of physics have been violated in the above.  Please
> step away from your Ouija board and be safe."
> But is reads as if some are damaged or invented.
> ref:
> `http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512323.pdf
>
> or from Australia,
> http://www.esdjournal.com/static/Static_Fires.pdf
>
> and, "Let's also suppose that the planes fuel cap is removed and you get the
> gas can from the back of your pickup which happens to have a static charge.
> You attach the clamp and chain to the gas can so they now are carrying the
> static charge.  The chain hits the filler ring and you got a big problem."
>
> or of you first drop the chain in the tank and then attach the clamp to the
> can, if there is a discharge it is at the clamp-can interface out in the
> open air.
>
> You do whatever you want... I'll fuel my airplane safely by ensuring that
> there is no static potential difference between the can and the fuel in the
> tank or filler hole or the Ouija board.
>
> Sid Knox
> Oklahoma
>
> Velocity  173 RG  N199RS
> Starduster  N666SK
> KR2         N24TC
> W7QJQ
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:42 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell about
> it.(LaurenceCoen)
>
>
> Karl,
>
> The fuel in the tank contains a distributed charge because it is a fluid.
> Since it is a non-conductor it does not present a problem.  The antistatic
> mat is redundant and would have to be connected to ground to be effective.
> Since it will protect your paint, it might still be a good idea. Submerging
> the nozzle in the fuel has no effect.  Sid came up with a device to connect
> a non-conducting plastic gas can to to the non-conducting gas in the tank.
> That is a solution in want of a problem.  One more time......You CAN NOT
> ground a non-conductor.  Lets suppose that it's a metal gas can that can be
> grounded.  Let's also suppose that the planes fuel cap is removed and you
> get the gas can from the back of your pickup which happens to have a static
> charge.  You attach the clamp and chain to the gas can so they now are
> carrying the static charge.  The chain hits the filler ring and you got a
> big problem.
>
> The static electricity produced from fuel flowing into your tank is not a
> problem because it has nowhere to go so it remains static.  Let me explain
> how you can set your plane on fire using this phenomena.  Get a plastic gas
> can and a metal funnel and set it under a fuel drain so that when you open
> the drain gas flows into the funnel and fills the can.  IF the fuel flows at
> 10 GPH it will take 30 minutes to fill a 5 gal can.  Electrically speaking
> the metal funnel is suspended in space.  The flowing fuel will transfer it's
> static charge to the funnel until it becomes high enough to ionize the air
> in contact with it.  You've all seen this happen before.  It's called
> lightning.  In this it's called corona discharge.  It's not spectacular like
> lightning but the resulting fire will be.
>
> No laws of physics have been violated in the above.  Please step away from
> your Ouija board and be safe.
>
> Larry Coen
> N136LC
>
>
> From: Karl J. Warner
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell about it.
> (LaurenceCoen)
>
>
> Larry, I'm also concerned about static on the surface of the fuel itself and
> the additional frictional static charge created by the falling fuel.  Your 2
> cents on this list summation would be appreciated:
>
>
> Fueling a composite airplane...
>
>
>   1.. Ground pump/truck Airplane onto exhaust or engine.
>   2.. Put antistatic mat around filler cap.
>   3.. Leave the gas cap on until you have the fuel filler nozzle in your
> other hand.
>   4.. Use free hand to open the gas cap.  This puts the nozzle, you and the
> gas cap/filler ring all at ground potential before combustible vapor is
> available.
>   5.. Flowing gas produces additional static electricity so make sure the
> nozzle remains:
>     a.. in contact with the filler ring AND
>     b.. submersed in fuel during the fueling process if possible.
>   6.. Replace cap and latch before going to the next tank.
>   7.. Repeat.
>   8.. Unground airplane.
>
>
> Karl
> On Jan 31, 2012, at 2:32 PM, reflector-request at tvbf.org wrote:
>
>
>   Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
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>
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>   Today's Topics:
>
>     1.  How to fuel up and live to tell about it. (Laurence Coen)
>     2.  P.S.: No gloves (Laurence Coen)
>     3. Re:  Reflector down (Brian Michalk)
>
>
>   From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
>
>   Date: January 31, 2012 2:15:07 PM EST
>
>   To: "reflector16" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>   Subject: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell about it.
>
>   Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>
>
>
>   All.
>
>   It’s winter and the time for static electricity.  It's also the time for
> fueling accidents.  Last week in Kansas City someone totaled his Chevy
> pickup at the gas pump to say nothing of what he did to the canopy he was
> parked under.  This was all caught in the station surveillance camera. The
> gentleman was sitting in his truck with the door open and the gas hose
> filling the tank.  He then slid off the seat, turning himself into a 40
> thousand volt time bomb.  He walked back and grabbed the fill nozzle.  FOOM!
> Since fill nozzles have to be grounded by law and it was in contact with the
> all metal truck, this was not a grounding problem of the vehicle.  If this
> guy had of touched anything metal as he slid of the seat this would not have
> happened.
>
>   You can ground the metal stuff on a Velocity but you cannot, no matter how
> hard you try, ground your fuel tank wings or the gas in the tank because
> they are all non-conductors.  The metal ring for the fuel cap is metal and
> can have a static charge if it is not wired to the ground of the plane and
> you attach the ground clip like you're suppose to.
>
>   If you follow this technique it won't matter if it's grounded or not.
> Leave the gas cap in place until the plane is grounded and you have the fuel
> nozzle in your hand  Now use your free hand to open the gas cap.  This will
> guarantee that the nozzle, you and the gas cap/filler ring are all at ground
> potential before combustible vapor is available.  Flowing gas will produce
> static electricity so make sure the nozzle remains in contact with the ring
> during fueling.  Replace and latch the cap before going to the next tank.
> Repeat.
>
>   Larry Coen
>   N136LC
>
>
>
>
>   From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
>
>   Date: January 31, 2012 2:25:48 PM EST
>
>   To: "reflector16" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>   Subject: REFLECTOR: P.S.: No gloves
>
>   Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>
>
>
>   You can put your gloves back on after the nozzle is in the tank.  And
> don't wander off and slide across your seat covers.
>
>   Larry Coen
>   N136LC
>
>
>
>
>   From: Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com>
>
>   Date: January 31, 2012 2:35:44 PM EST
>
>   To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>   Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector down
>
>   Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>
>
>
>   Juanita bought an industrial sewing machine off CraigsList, and made some
> very nice leather seats out of leather that someone here on the Reflector
> arranged a group buy for.
>   They are pretty heavy with confor-foam, but are very comfortable.
>
>   The rest is a combination of carpet from Wal-Mart, I think, and some
> fabric she bought.
>
>   For now, it looks pretty good, and we've talked about redoing it in a few
> years.  I just happened to take a shot of the back seats.  I'll try to get
> some better pictures this weekend.
>
>   <jfcbdbdf.jpg>
>
>   On 1/30/2012 6:56 PM, Douglas Holub wrote:
>     Hi Brian,
>
>     I'm about to put my interior in after flying the plane for about 135
> hours. We had the seats and the glare shield upholstered before we started
> flying, so now we just need carpet, side panels, and the headliner.  My
> vanity panel is varnished wood.
>
>     A few years ago Scott Baker suggested that I could get a good quality,
> relatively inexpensive interior by hiring a local hot rodders custom
> interiors shop, so I think that's what I'm going to do. What did you do? Got
> any pictures?
>
>     Doug Holub
>     2009 Standard FG w/ electric nose lift
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: Brian Michalk
>       To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>       Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 5:31 PM
>       Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector down
>
>
>       You are welcome.
>
>       My project is dangerously close to flying again.
>       We just put in the interior, and wow, that makes a big difference.
> Unlike you, we are planning to paint after flying the plane for a while.
> This weekend I primered the wings, and wow, that makes a big difference too.
>
>       I've got some details to finish for the annual, like new batteries and
> such, but most of the remaining items are administrative, like my medical,
> BFR, getting my repairmans certificate so I can sign off the annual, and
> also a new weight and balance.
>
>       I still need to do engine tuning as well.  Then it's time for taxi
> testing.
>
>       On 1/29/2012 11:39 PM, nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>         Brian,
>
>
>         Yet another "thank you" for you work done and ongoing.
>
>
>         How's the project?
>
>
>         Kurt
>
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com>
>         To: Laurence Coen <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
>         Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>         Sent: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 7:49 pm
>         Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector down
>
>
>         Laurence, and Reflector:
>
>         I've been having issues with the email this week after I moved the
> internal network addressing scheme.  It appears to be related to DNS taking
> longer than previously, which backs up the mail server, because it must then
> keep connections open for longer.  If it weren't for the high spam volume,
> my server wouldn't have anything to do.
>
>         I should have the problem resolved this weekend.
>
>         On 1/27/2012 2:36 PM, Laurence Coen wrote:
>           Brian,
>
>           Messages are getting to the archives but not being posted to the
> subscribers. I posted a reply to a Chris Barber question on 1/23/2012 that
> failed to echo on the reflector.  The email from Chris is the last Reflector
> message that I have seen.  I checked my profile and it looks fine.  The
> archives now contain more messages wondering where the Reflector went.
>
>           Larry Coen
>           N136LC
>
>
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-- 
All the best,
Dennis
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