REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tellaboutit.(LaurenceCoen)

Sat Feb 4 23:38:10 CST 2012

But still the fuel is caring the charge unless your fuel does not go all the way to the engine Right?

From: Lou Stedman 
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 10:12 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tellaboutit.(LaurenceCoen)

That is unless you have non metallic fuel lines like mine.

From: Mark Magee 
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 9:00 PM
To: Ron Velocity XLFG ; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tellaboutit.(LaurenceCoen)

Correct.

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ron Velocity XLFG <VelocityXL at fastmail.fm> wrote:

  I sorry I am now very confused if a ground to a plastic container is need and the plastic is no conductive what is
  the point. Seems to me this means as long  as the tires are on the ground there should be no need for grounding.
  Which is not true. Contact with the fuel with a conductive material is required Right? So the aluminum  Fuel line
  running  from the tank to the engine  Exhaust pipe to ground and you are fully grounded  Right?

  Ron

  -----Original Message----- From: sbjknox
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 8:21 PM 

  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list

  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell aboutit.(LaurenceCoen)

  From below:  "No laws of physics have been violated in the above.  Please
  step away from your Ouija board and be safe."
  But is reads as if some are damaged or invented.
  ref:
  `
  http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512323.pdf

  or from Australia,

  http://www.esdjournal.com/static/Static_Fires.pdf

  and, "Let's also suppose that the planes fuel cap is removed and you get the
  gas can from the back of your pickup which happens to have a static charge.
  You attach the clamp and chain to the gas can so they now are carrying the
  static charge.  The chain hits the filler ring and you got a big problem."

  or of you first drop the chain in the tank and then attach the clamp to the
  can, if there is a discharge it is at the clamp-can interface out in the
  open air.

  You do whatever you want... I'll fuel my airplane safely by ensuring that
  there is no static potential difference between the can and the fuel in the
  tank or filler hole or the Ouija board.

  Sid Knox
  Oklahoma

  Velocity  173 RG  N199RS
  Starduster  N666SK
  KR2         N24TC
  W7QJQ

  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
  To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:42 PM
  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell about
  it.(LaurenceCoen)

  Karl,

  The fuel in the tank contains a distributed charge because it is a fluid.
  Since it is a non-conductor it does not present a problem.  The antistatic
  mat is redundant and would have to be connected to ground to be effective.
  Since it will protect your paint, it might still be a good idea. Submerging
  the nozzle in the fuel has no effect.  Sid came up with a device to connect
  a non-conducting plastic gas can to to the non-conducting gas in the tank.
  That is a solution in want of a problem.  One more time......You CAN NOT
  ground a non-conductor.  Lets suppose that it's a metal gas can that can be
  grounded.  Let's also suppose that the planes fuel cap is removed and you
  get the gas can from the back of your pickup which happens to have a static
  charge.  You attach the clamp and chain to the gas can so they now are
  carrying the static charge.  The chain hits the filler ring and you got a
  big problem.

  The static electricity produced from fuel flowing into your tank is not a
  problem because it has nowhere to go so it remains static.  Let me explain
  how you can set your plane on fire using this phenomena.  Get a plastic gas
  can and a metal funnel and set it under a fuel drain so that when you open
  the drain gas flows into the funnel and fills the can.  IF the fuel flows at
  10 GPH it will take 30 minutes to fill a 5 gal can.  Electrically speaking
  the metal funnel is suspended in space.  The flowing fuel will transfer it's
  static charge to the funnel until it becomes high enough to ionize the air
  in contact with it.  You've all seen this happen before.  It's called
  lightning.  In this it's called corona discharge.  It's not spectacular like
  lightning but the resulting fire will be.

  No laws of physics have been violated in the above.  Please step away from
  your Ouija board and be safe.

  Larry Coen
  N136LC

  From: Karl J. Warner
  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 12:29 PM
  To: reflector at tvbf.org
  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell about it.
  (LaurenceCoen)

  Larry, I'm also concerned about static on the surface of the fuel itself and
  the additional frictional static charge created by the falling fuel.  Your 2
  cents on this list summation would be appreciated:

  Fueling a composite airplane...

  1.. Ground pump/truck Airplane onto exhaust or engine.
  2.. Put antistatic mat around filler cap.
  3.. Leave the gas cap on until you have the fuel filler nozzle in your
  other hand.
  4.. Use free hand to open the gas cap.  This puts the nozzle, you and the
  gas cap/filler ring all at ground potential before combustible vapor is
  available.
  5.. Flowing gas produces additional static electricity so make sure the
  nozzle remains:
    a.. in contact with the filler ring AND
    b.. submersed in fuel during the fueling process if possible.
  6.. Replace cap and latch before going to the next tank.
  7.. Repeat.
  8.. Unground airplane.

  Karl
  On Jan 31, 2012, at 2:32 PM, reflector-request at tvbf.org wrote:

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  Today's Topics:

    1.  How to fuel up and live to tell about it. (Laurence Coen)
    2.  P.S.: No gloves (Laurence Coen)
    3. Re:  Reflector down (Brian Michalk)

  From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>

  Date: January 31, 2012 2:15:07 PM EST

  To: "reflector16" <reflector at tvbf.org>

  Subject: REFLECTOR: How to fuel up and live to tell about it.

  Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>

  All.

  It’s winter and the time for static electricity.  It's also the time for
  fueling accidents.  Last week in Kansas City someone totaled his Chevy
  pickup at the gas pump to say nothing of what he did to the canopy he was
  parked under.  This was all caught in the station surveillance camera. The
  gentleman was sitting in his truck with the door open and the gas hose
  filling the tank.  He then slid off the seat, turning himself into a 40
  thousand volt time bomb.  He walked back and grabbed the fill nozzle.  FOOM!
  Since fill nozzles have to be grounded by law and it was in contact with the
  all metal truck, this was not a grounding problem of the vehicle.  If this
  guy had of touched anything metal as he slid of the seat this would not have
  happened.

  You can ground the metal stuff on a Velocity but you cannot, no matter how
  hard you try, ground your fuel tank wings or the gas in the tank because
  they are all non-conductors.  The metal ring for the fuel cap is metal and
  can have a static charge if it is not wired to the ground of the plane and
  you attach the ground clip like you're suppose to.

  If you follow this technique it won't matter if it's grounded or not.
  Leave the gas cap in place until the plane is grounded and you have the fuel
  nozzle in your hand  Now use your free hand to open the gas cap.  This will
  guarantee that the nozzle, you and the gas cap/filler ring are all at ground
  potential before combustible vapor is available.  Flowing gas will produce
  static electricity so make sure the nozzle remains in contact with the ring
  during fueling.  Replace and latch the cap before going to the next tank.
  Repeat.

  Larry Coen
  N136LC

  From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>

  Date: January 31, 2012 2:25:48 PM EST

  To: "reflector16" <reflector at tvbf.org>

  Subject: REFLECTOR: P.S.: No gloves

  Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>

  You can put your gloves back on after the nozzle is in the tank.  And
  don't wander off and slide across your seat covers.

  Larry Coen
  N136LC

  From: Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com>

  Date: January 31, 2012 2:35:44 PM EST

  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>

  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector down

  Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>

  Juanita bought an industrial sewing machine off CraigsList, and made some
  very nice leather seats out of leather that someone here on the Reflector
  arranged a group buy for.
  They are pretty heavy with confor-foam, but are very comfortable.

  The rest is a combination of carpet from Wal-Mart, I think, and some
  fabric she bought.

  For now, it looks pretty good, and we've talked about redoing it in a few
  years.  I just happened to take a shot of the back seats.  I'll try to get
  some better pictures this weekend.

  <jfcbdbdf.jpg>

  On 1/30/2012 6:56 PM, Douglas Holub wrote:
    Hi Brian,

    I'm about to put my interior in after flying the plane for about 135
  hours. We had the seats and the glare shield upholstered before we started
  flying, so now we just need carpet, side panels, and the headliner.  My
  vanity panel is varnished wood.

    A few years ago Scott Baker suggested that I could get a good quality,
  relatively inexpensive interior by hiring a local hot rodders custom
  interiors shop, so I think that's what I'm going to do. What did you do? Got
  any pictures?

    Doug Holub
    2009 Standard FG w/ electric nose lift
      ----- Original Message -----      From: Brian Michalk
      To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
      Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 5:31 PM
      Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector down

      You are welcome.

      My project is dangerously close to flying again.
      We just put in the interior, and wow, that makes a big difference.
  Unlike you, we are planning to paint after flying the plane for a while.
  This weekend I primered the wings, and wow, that makes a big difference too.

      I've got some details to finish for the annual, like new batteries and
  such, but most of the remaining items are administrative, like my medical,
  BFR, getting my repairmans certificate so I can sign off the annual, and
  also a new weight and balance.

      I still need to do engine tuning as well.  Then it's time for taxi
  testing.

      On 1/29/2012 11:39 PM, nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
        Brian,

        Yet another "thank you" for you work done and ongoing.

        How's the project?

        Kurt

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com>
        To: Laurence Coen <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
        Cc: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
        Sent: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 7:49 pm
        Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector down

        Laurence, and Reflector:

        I've been having issues with the email this week after I moved the
  internal network addressing scheme.  It appears to be related to DNS taking
  longer than previously, which backs up the mail server, because it must then
  keep connections open for longer.  If it weren't for the high spam volume,
  my server wouldn't have anything to do.

        I should have the problem resolved this weekend.

        On 1/27/2012 2:36 PM, Laurence Coen wrote:
          Brian,

          Messages are getting to the archives but not being posted to the
  subscribers. I posted a reply to a Chris Barber question on 1/23/2012 that
  failed to echo on the reflector.  The email from Chris is the last Reflector
  message that I have seen.  I checked my profile and it looks fine.  The
  archives now contain more messages wondering where the Reflector went.

          Larry Coen
          N136LC

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