REFLECTOR: GPS outage, no big deal

Mon Dec 3 13:45:42 CST 2012

Kurt,

It was the local airport authority that posted a notice that the VOR was being decommissioned. So, maybe it wasn't the FAA that screwed up.  I do know for sure that it is currently shut down.

Larry Coen
N136LC

From: nmflyer1 at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 1:24 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: GPS outage, no big deal

Interesting, The OJC VOR is still on current approach plates:  

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1212/05687LD18.PDF

And the NOTAM says it is out of service until the middle of January:  
!OJC 11/005 OJC NAV VOR OTS WEF 1211131709-1301150901

Strange how the FAA operates. 

Kurt 

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Coen <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:33 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: GPS outage, no big deal

I fly out of KOJC in the Kansas City area.  We have localizers for 18-36 and they decommissioned the on field VOR last month.

Larry Coen
N136LC

From: nmflyer1 at aol.com 
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 8:10 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: GPS outage, no big deal

As far as the VOR system goes, it depends on who you ask. Just today I was in a briefing on RNAV Stars into the Denver area where they said that they plan on decomissioning all the VORs soon. Now this person really doesn't know what they are talking about as far as logistics go, but she heard it somewhere!  I have also heard that they do plan on trying to decommission some of the VORs that are not used for approaches.. but that was about 10 years off the last I heard. 

Honestly, You could probably ask 5 people very high up in the chain and get 5 different answers. 

Kurt 

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 3:41 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: GPS outage, no big deal

Mark,

    I guess I'm on the other side of the fence. I think GPS jamming is going to become less of an issue. A big part of the testing both you and I have experienced that is going on at White Sands is to figure out how to do pinpoint jamming in a war zone.  Since we are both skirting the edge of that test range we are experiencing the learning process.  

    I thought I heard something to the effect that the FAA was going to support the present VOR/ILS systems for another 20 years?   Kurt could ask the systems guys at ABQ ARTCC, what they know?

Like I said, 99% of people will never see jamming, because they are not flying right next to a GPS Jamming test site.

Anyway, its good to practice dead reconning!!! Though I agree its a bit hair raising knowing your 5-10 miles from a NO WAY JOZE restricted airspace! 

    I don't know what GR's INAV is, it's certainly not real Inertial Navigation!

Scott

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: GPS outage, no big deal
From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Date: 12/02/2012 11:50 AM

  Hi Scott, 
  I'm glad GPS jamming has had little affect on you. My point is it is out there, and from indications a growing problem. 
  I hope the VOR/ILS system will be maintained indefinitely or until a long term solution on this situation enters the equation. I had heard VOR/ILS was being eyed for long-term phase out with GPS and WAAS to to take over.
  I will be more interested in an EFIS that can perform an NDB triangulating function as backup for GPS. I know Grand Rapids uses their AHRS using electronic INAV as primary. That is reassuring.
  Mark

  On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:

    I've flown the route from Grants to Carlsbad over  a hundred times.  Seeing a notam for GPS outage along my route was fairly common.  Out of the 20 or so instances I think I experienced an intermittent issue a couple times.  No big deal.  We do have VOR/ILS radios in both T210's as I do in my Velocity.  

    It's a very rare occurrence and for 99% of us a non-issue. 

    If you feel its an issue, install a VOR receiver in your panel! They are cheap and an easy install. I even carry a Icom handheld in case I loose the entire panel, and I has a VOR receiver in it. But its a PITA to navigate with it!

    Scott

    -------- Original Message --------
    Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: NextGen NAV
    From: nmflyer1 at aol.com
    To: reflector at tvbf.org
    Date: 12/01/2012 08:36 PM

      They do that kind of jamming in white sands (Holloman AFB), and up by Pueblo Co. Sometimes, both at once. Many times they attempt to make the jamming directional (although they won't tell the general public that). They do this for target purposes as well as to minimize serious outages for the public. Sometimes, they just turn it on and jam everything. 
      They do have to put a NOTAM out for it. The problem is, us controllers may not get the NOTAM on our "new and improved" system. Rather, if we get a few reports, we have to go digging to find out what is up. 
      I have had FSS inform me of these NOTAMS when calling for a briefing. Sometimes on the computerized ones, they just don't show up.

      Best to always have a plan B... or C 

      Kurt Winker
      Albuquerque Center. 

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
      To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
      Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:58 pm
      Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: NextGen NAV

      Hi Bill,
      I posted about this in the past, it's probably in the archive: but to summarize I was making a leg from KDVT (Phoenix area) to my home in KBBD in central Texas in N34XL when I lost GPS halfway across southern New Mexico eastbound and had to dead reckon to beyond ELP, about 45 mins. I had just bought N34XL and was relocating it to my home, it only has GPS in the panel and I had a backup Nav  for my IPad, both went down. On with ELP APP I heard the controllers calling vectors for the SKED Airliners, and with SWAL B37 drivers responding to controllers that they had lost primary nav. As well I heard the controllers working F-18's, and finally after quite a while flying dead reckoning (sandwiched in a corridor inside Restricted Airspace) a controller on APP announced that GPS jamming was occurring in the area, with no known time at which it would stop. I was just south of White Sands NM when I lost GPS initially. I think I drove out of the jamming area and regained GPS about 35 NM east of ELP, probably 145nm without GPS.  Apparently US Military was conducting drills over White Sands and was jamming GPS. I'm glad is was CAVU that day. 
      After this event, I reviewed this with a few B37 drivers at SWAL I know, and they said that if close to restricted airspace in certain parts of the country, GPS jamming is common. And the jamming spills out way beyond the perimeter of the Restricted airspace. So the more active military OPS and Restricted airspace you have in your local area the better chance you have of losing your GPS in flight.
      That's it in a nutshell. 

      Mark

      On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Stockman, Bill <bill.stockman at daytonaero.com> wrote:

        Mark

        I'm late to the discussion.   How did you know you were actually being jammed?
        ________________________________________
        From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee [edjonesbrady at gmail.com]
        Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 3:20 PM
        To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
        Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: NextGen NAV

        On Dec 1, 2012, at 12:18 PM, James Lotspeich <jlotspeich34 at gmail.com> wrote:

        > On the flip side, GPS jamming is not exactly a common problem.

        True. Yet the fact it is so easily (and inexpensively) jammed is concerning. The first time you encounter your own personal session of being GPS jammed in-flight while PIC, behind  a panel with no VOR, NDB, ADF installed it greatly changes your perspective. Having my GPS jammed for almost 45 mins in-flight has turned me into an activist on this issue.

        Mark B. Magee
        Sent from IPhone 4S

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