REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112
Kevin Baker
flykb at verizon.net
Sun Aug 26 14:48:45 CDT 2012
Also..
I think someone mentioned a call to velocity might be helpful since they may have some more ideas from their experience as well.
Thanks
Kevin Baker
.
On Aug 26, 2012, at 1:06 PM, Terrence Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Geoff,
>
> I wish I had some more ideas. These are only “what else might it be” ideas on my part. Keep your head around simple fixes over digging deeper into complicated reconstruction of the basic platform. Be sure you have considered all the simple stuff first. Some of this, I know was already suggested. I am just re-enforcing the suggestions.
>
> Do you have a 2nd needle/ball device to eliminate any yaw factors? I would scotch tape up a yaw string in the middle on your front windshield and see what it is telling you, just to eliminate that axis as a contributor. Use some dark colored darning yarn. Check it for how it is supposed to behave. Displace a rudder alone. Make a rudder and aileron displaced heading change. Try a turn with only aileron. See what it does. Do this in both directions and different speeds.
>
> Here is another idea: Is the gap between the wing and the ailerons the exactly the same along the full width and depth and equal on both wings? Look at all three sides where aileron and wing are adjacent. Take a straight edge and see if you have any convex or concave areas on either aileron on both upper and lower surfaces of the control itself, and to be sure they are fully aligned vertically and horizontally. How about trailing edge thickness? Could some stray air molecules be sucking up your high aileron or pushing down your low one…and how?
>
> Measure the distance from canard tip to wing tip and compare left side to right side. This is not a player, but do it anyway, and know we are all right there with you seeking the best answer for you…I think that’s probably the real reason that I writing.
>
> Just some ideas.
>
> Terry
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:19 PM
> To: Jean Prudhomme; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112
>
> Jean,
>
> Are you saying that you torqued the wing by only putting a washer in one bolt location? Because its a roll issue, not a yaw issue, I'm assuming I should be looking for a incidence angle difference between them. I thought the best way to do this would be to use a digital inclinometer and compare the angles of the trailing edges of the wings where there's a nice flat surface.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Geoff
>
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Jean Prudhomme <prudhommejean at yahoo.com> wrote:
> As builder of several Velocity it,s happen a couple of time and i had to put washer between spars at upper or lower bolt position to twist the wing and finally have the correction done
>
> JEAN PRUDHOMME
> Sales Associate
> CANADA REALTY INC
> POMPANO BEACH FLORIDA
> Tel:754-366-1780
> Toll free: 866-439-5011
> http://jeanprudhomme.southfloridamls.com/
>
> From: "reflector-request at tvbf.org" <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:36 PM
> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists (steve korney)
> 2. Navy Man (Mark Magee)
> 3. Re: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists (Richard J. Gentil)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:15:03 +0000
> From: steve korney <s_korney at hotmail.com>
> To: Reflector Reflector <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> Message-ID: <SNT127-W21BE981B00B795ABE7E4B3E7BC0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
> Geoff...
>
> The ailerons are free floating... They should set themselves by aerodynamic forces of airflow...When you let go of the stick, the ailerons should take a position on their own and should be the same on both sides no matter what the aircraft is doing...
>
>
> Steve
>
> From: lwcoen at hotmail.com
> To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com; reflector at tvbf.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:39:04 -0500
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Geoff,
>
> >From what you are describing it sounds like the ailerons are
> being deflected aerodynamically. You might want to look at the bottom
> forward edge of the left aileron to see if it extends below the lower surface of
> the wing when it?s held in the neutral position. Since the ailerons are
> hinged at the top, any increase of drag on the left compared to the right would
> cause the effect you're seeing.
>
> Larry Coen
> N136LC
>
>
>
>
> From: Geoff Gerhardt
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:37 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency
> persists
>
> Alex/Steve,
>
>
> That was my first thought, too, but in order to get it to fly level,
> pressure on the stick is needed to keep the ailerons to neutral. If I let
> the stick go, the left aileron wants to come up, right goes down. If it
> were a wing shimming issue, I'd expect that the ailerons would need to be pushed
> into a non-neutral position to counteract the effect of improperly aligned
> wings.
>
>
> Before flying the plane, my ailerons were positioned so that the trailing
> edges were level with the wings. After the third flight when I noticed
> this left roll tendency, I adjusted them so they drooped ~1/8". I think it
> helped a little, but did not eliminate the left roll tendency.
>
>
> Geoff
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Possibly
> the wings need shimming
>
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Geoff
> Gerhardt
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:38 PM
> To:
> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>
> Subject: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency
> persists
>
>
> Guys,
>
>
>
>
>
> I went on my fourth test flight this afternoon. Still
> have butterflies before the flight and check things over like I have OCD (yes,
> the canard bolts are still there, for the fourth time...).
>
>
>
>
> Dealing with a few issues now that I've left the pattern
> and brought it up to speed. I noticed on the third flight that it wants
> to roll to the left. This is not a yaw (ball's in the center), but a
> definite roll that requires right pressure on the stick to fly level at 140kts
> (more pressure for higher speed). Aileron trim isn't enough to take it
> out. On that third flight, when I was flying level at 140ks by using
> right stick pressure, when I looked back I could see that the trailing edges
> of both ailerons were a little higher than the wing. So, before the
> fourth flight, I drooped both down so they were ~1/8" below the wing (they
> were level before at rest), but this did not have much effect on the roll
> tendency (although the ailerons were level or drooping at speed). It
> definitely seems to be an aileron issue. When I'm flying level (using
> right stick pressure), the ailerons seem to be in an equal position.
> Letting the stick go, the right aileron comes up, left down and it
> rolls. Any other ideas on things to check?
>
>
>
> Slow flight went very well, nice control down to 60kts.
> Easy 180 turn, then back the other way holding
> altitude.
>
>
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 15:16:58 -0500
> From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Navy Man
> Message-ID: <5A62CBAF-9870-445E-9B44-FC70374835F4 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> You guys know a Navy Man was the first one to step foot on the moon?
> No glass flight decks back then.
> An era has ended.
>
> Mark B. Magee
> N34XL
> Sent from IPhone 4
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:35:58 -0400
> From: "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> Message-ID:
> <F3674ACC-E17A-4F9C-9A53-0B42BE2FB26B at naples-air-center.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Geoff,
>
> I would look to the incident angle of your wings, the faster you go, the pronounced the turning tendency will be.
>
> Richard
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4 Classic
>
> On Aug 25, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve korney <s_korney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Geoff...
> >
> > The ailerons are free floating... They should set themselves by aerodynamic forces of airflow...When you let go of the stick, the ailerons should take a position on their own and should be the same on both sides no matter what the aircraft is doing...
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > From: lwcoen at hotmail.com
> > To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com; reflector at tvbf.org
> > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:39:04 -0500
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> >
> > Geoff,
> >
> > From what you are describing it sounds like the ailerons are being deflected aerodynamically. You might want to look at the bottom forward edge of the left aileron to see if it extends below the lower surface of the wing when it?s held in the neutral position. Since the ailerons are hinged at the top, any increase of drag on the left compared to the right would cause the effect you're seeing.
> >
> > Larry Coen
> > N136LC
> >
> > From: Geoff Gerhardt
> > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:37 AM
> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> >
> > Alex/Steve,
> >
> > That was my first thought, too, but in order to get it to fly level, pressure on the stick is needed to keep the ailerons to neutral. If I let the stick go, the left aileron wants to come up, right goes down. If it were a wing shimming issue, I'd expect that the ailerons would need to be pushed into a non-neutral position to counteract the effect of improperly aligned wings.
> >
> > Before flying the plane, my ailerons were positioned so that the trailing edges were level with the wings. After the third flight when I noticed this left roll tendency, I adjusted them so they drooped ~1/8". I think it helped a little, but did not eliminate the left roll tendency.
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net> wrote:
> > Possibly the wings need shimming
> >
> >
> >
> > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:38 PM
> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> >
> >
> > Subject: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> >
> >
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> >
> >
> > I went on my fourth test flight this afternoon. Still have butterflies before the flight and check things over like I have OCD (yes, the canard bolts are still there, for the fourth time...).
> >
> >
> >
> > Dealing with a few issues now that I've left the pattern and brought it up to speed. I noticed on the third flight that it wants to roll to the left. This is not a yaw (ball's in the center), but a definite roll that requires right pressure on the stick to fly level at 140kts (more pressure for higher speed). Aileron trim isn't enough to take it out. On that third flight, when I was flying level at 140ks by using right stick pressure, when I looked back I could see that the trailing edges of both ailerons were a little higher than the wing. So, before the fourth flight, I drooped both down so they were ~1/8" below the wing (they were level before at rest), but this did not have much effect on the roll tendency (although the ailerons were level or drooping at speed). It definitely seems to be an aileron issue. When I'm flying level (using right stick pressure), the ailerons seem to be in an equal position. Letting the stick go, the right aileron comes up, l!
> eft down and it rolls. Any other ideas on things to check?
> >
> >
> >
> > Slow flight went very well, nice control down to 60kts. Easy 180 turn, then back the other way holding altitude.
> >
> >
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
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>
> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112
> ******************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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