REFLECTOR: 4th test flight

David Ullman ullman at robustdecisions.com
Sat Aug 25 22:25:19 CDT 2012


Geoff
I respectfully disagree with Lazy Larry.  The trim tab fix just means that
your plane is flying crabwise.  It will be faster and handle better if you
figure out the asymmetry and fix it.  

I want my plane as true as possible so it is as fast as possible.

Stick with your level idea.  Easier if you have a digital level, then you
can read the angles at various places very easy.    

David Ullman
N444DX
President EAA 292
541-754-3609
david at davidullman.com


-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of reflector-request at tvbf.org
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 7:15 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 118

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	reflector at tvbf.org

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  4th test flight - roll tendency persists (Laurence Coen)
   2.  Armstrong (David Ullman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:41:25 -0500
From: "Laurence Coen" <lwcoen at hotmail.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
Message-ID: <SNT117-DS15E62CDA846DC973A039C7D3A30 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Geoff,

I agree with Alex.  People trying to convince you that you didn't see what
you saw is because it doesn't jibe with their theory on wing incidence.   As
to what is causing the asymmetry  you could spend years trying to figure
that out.  The good news is that it really doesn't matter what the cause
because the fix is cheap and simple.  If you want easy you need to find a
really lazy guy.  That would be me, "Lazy Larry".  I'm also cheap!  Get a
small piece of flat aluminum like the roofers use and cut out a rectangle
about 2" x 1" and round off the corners so you don't hurt yourself.  Bend it
along the long axis center for about a 5 degree droop.  Silicone it to the
bottom of the right aileron inboard.  Go fly and bend it up or down till
it's just right.  This solution comes with the "Lazy Larry" 100% lifetime
warrantee.  If it don't work, peel it off and throw it away.

Larry Coen
N136LC


From: Alex Balic 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 7:54 PM
To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com ; 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists


So, if the ailerons are forced to neutral, then the plane no longer tries to
roll?  And when not flying, they are neutral with no force on the stick? 

 If so, I would guess that they  are not symmetrical either in chord, length
or cross section if the airflow is the only thing causing the force to exist
on them and by forcing them back to neutral the roll goes away.  If the
wings needed shimming, then you would fly roll-free with some aileron
deflection.

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:38 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists

 

Alex/Steve,

 

That was my first thought, too, but in order to get it to fly level,
pressure on the stick is needed to keep the ailerons to neutral.  If I let
the stick go, the left aileron wants to come up, right goes down.  If it
were a wing shimming issue, I'd expect that the ailerons would need to be
pushed into a non-neutral position to counteract the effect of improperly
aligned wings.

 

Before flying the plane, my ailerons were positioned so that the trailing
edges were level with the wings.  After the third flight when I noticed this
left roll tendency, I adjusted them so they drooped ~1/8".  I think it
helped a little, but did not eliminate the left roll tendency.

 

Geoff

 

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
wrote:

Possibly the wings need shimming

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:38 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list


Subject: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists

 

Guys,

 

I went on my fourth test flight this afternoon.  Still have butterflies
before the flight and check things over like I have OCD (yes, the canard
bolts are still there, for the fourth time...).  

 

Dealing with a few issues now that I've left the pattern and brought it up
to speed.  I noticed on the third flight that it wants to roll to the left.
This is not a yaw (ball's in the center), but a definite roll that requires
right pressure on the stick to fly level at 140kts (more pressure for higher
speed).  Aileron trim isn't enough to take it out.  On that third flight,
when I was flying level at 140ks by using right stick pressure, when I
looked back I could see that the trailing edges of both ailerons were a
little higher than the wing.  So, before the fourth flight, I drooped both
down so they were ~1/8" below the wing (they were level before at rest), but
this did not have much effect on the roll tendency (although the ailerons
were level or drooping at speed).  It definitely seems to be an aileron
issue.  When I'm flying level (using right stick pressure), the ailerons
seem to be in an equal position.  Letting the stick go, the right aileron
comes up, left down an!
 d it rolls.  Any other ideas on things to check?

 

Slow flight went very well, nice control down to 60kts.  Easy 180 turn, then
back the other way holding altitude.

 

Geoff

 

 



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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 19:14:09 -0700
From: "David Ullman" <ullman at robustdecisions.com>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: REFLECTOR: Armstrong
Message-ID: <05d801cd8330$7a829720$6f87c560$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I met him once in a meeting at Wright Pat back in the mid 70s.  He was
really bored.  I would be bored too if I had walked on the moon a few years
earlier.  We have lost a true hero.  He never capitalized on his fame.  Did
his job well and moved on to the next challenge.  

David Ullman
N444DX
President EAA 292
541-754-3609
david at davidullman.com


-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of reflector-request at tvbf.org
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:33 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 117

Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
	reflector at tvbf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
	reflector-owner at tvbf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Navy Man (David Rene Dugas)
   2. Re:  4th test flight - roll tendency persists (Alex Balic)
   3. Re:  Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112 (Alex Balic)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 19:15:53 -0500
From: David Rene Dugas <renedugas at gmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Navy Man
Message-ID: <937E98C1-196E-4D6E-9D5B-92A0940C2716 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii

The right man in the right place with the right equipment and a planet full
of drive can do amazing things if they will risk it all. 
Cudos to an amazing guy. Oh yeah. 
Go Navy. Go Armstrong. 

Rene' Dugas
Sent from my iPhone4S

On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:16 PM, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com> wrote:

> You guys know a Navy Man was the first one to step foot on the moon? 
> No glass flight decks back then.
> An era has ended.
> 
> Mark B. Magee
> N34XL
> Sent from IPhone 4
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> 
> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 19:54:43 -0500
From: "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
To: <geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com>, "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and
	Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
Message-ID: <00d601cd8325$61788790$246996b0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

So, if the ailerons are forced to neutral, then the plane no longer tries to
roll?  And when not flying, they are neutral with no force on the stick? 

 If so, I would guess that they  are not symmetrical either in chord, length
or cross section if the airflow is the only thing causing the force to exist
on them and by forcing them back to neutral the roll goes away.  If the
wings needed shimming, then you would fly roll-free with some aileron
deflection.

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:38 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists

 

Alex/Steve,

 

That was my first thought, too, but in order to get it to fly level,
pressure on the stick is needed to keep the ailerons to neutral.  If I let
the stick go, the left aileron wants to come up, right goes down.  If it
were a wing shimming issue, I'd expect that the ailerons would need to be
pushed into a non-neutral position to counteract the effect of improperly
aligned wings.

 

Before flying the plane, my ailerons were positioned so that the trailing
edges were level with the wings.  After the third flight when I noticed this
left roll tendency, I adjusted them so they drooped ~1/8".  I think it
helped a little, but did not eliminate the left roll tendency.

 

Geoff

 

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
wrote:

Possibly the wings need shimming

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:38 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list


Subject: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists

 

Guys,

 

I went on my fourth test flight this afternoon.  Still have butterflies
before the flight and check things over like I have OCD (yes, the canard
bolts are still there, for the fourth time...).  

 

Dealing with a few issues now that I've left the pattern and brought it up
to speed.  I noticed on the third flight that it wants to roll to the left.
This is not a yaw (ball's in the center), but a definite roll that requires
right pressure on the stick to fly level at 140kts (more pressure for higher
speed).  Aileron trim isn't enough to take it out.  On that third flight,
when I was flying level at 140ks by using right stick pressure, when I
looked back I could see that the trailing edges of both ailerons were a
little higher than the wing.  So, before the fourth flight, I drooped both
down so they were ~1/8" below the wing (they were level before at rest), but
this did not have much effect on the roll tendency (although the ailerons
were level or drooping at speed).  It definitely seems to be an aileron
issue.  When I'm flying level (using right stick pressure), the ailerons
seem to be in an equal position.  Letting the stick go, the right aileron
comes up, left down and it rolls.  Any other ideas on things to check?

 

Slow flight went very well, nice control down to 60kts.  Easy 180 turn, then
back the other way holding altitude.

 

Geoff

 

 

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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:31:49 -0500
From: "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
To: <geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com>, "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and
	Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112
Message-ID: <00e701cd832a$92699330$b73cb990$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If you are rolling left, then either put a washer in the upper bolt on the
right wing, or the lower bolt of the left wing- it will add right roll ( to
correct)  there could be a slight profile  difference that is causing more
lift on one wing than the other- should not take long to do it- you can use
"U" shaped shims to test, (so you don't have to remove the bolts) then
replace with washers when you get corrected.

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:19 PM
To: Jean Prudhomme; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112

 

Jean,

 

Are you saying that you torqued the wing by only putting a washer in one
bolt location?  Because its a roll issue, not a yaw issue, I'm assuming I
should be looking for a incidence angle difference between them.  I thought
the best way to do this would be to use a digital inclinometer and compare
the angles of the trailing edges of the wings where there's a nice flat
surface.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Geoff

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Jean Prudhomme <prudhommejean at yahoo.com>
wrote:

As builder of several Velocity it,s happen a couple of time and i had to put
washer between spars at upper or lower bolt position to twist the wing and
finally have the correction done

 

JEAN PRUDHOMME

Sales Associate

 CANADA REALTY INC

POMPANO BEACH FLORIDA

Tel:754-366-1780

Toll free: 866-439-5011

http://jeanprudhomme.southfloridamls.com/

 

From: "reflector-request at tvbf.org" <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
To: reflector at tvbf.org 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:36 PM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112


Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
    reflector at tvbf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."


Today's Topics:

  1. Re:  4th test flight - roll tendency persists (steve korney)
  2.  Navy Man (Mark Magee)
  3. Re:  4th test flight - roll tendency persists (Richard J. Gentil)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:15:03 +0000
From: steve korney <s_korney at hotmail.com>
To: Reflector Reflector <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
Message-ID: <SNT127-W21BE981B00B795ABE7E4B3E7BC0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"


Geoff...

The ailerons are free floating... They should set themselves by aerodynamic
forces of airflow...When you let go of the stick, the ailerons should take a
position on their own and should be the same on both sides no matter what
the aircraft is doing... 


Steve 

From: lwcoen at hotmail.com
To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com; reflector at tvbf.org
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:39:04 -0500
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists






Geoff,

>From what you are describing it sounds like the ailerons are 
being deflected aerodynamically.  You might want to look at the bottom 
forward edge of the left aileron to see if it extends below the lower
surface of 
the wing when it?s held in the neutral position.  Since the ailerons are 
hinged at the top, any increase of drag on the left compared to the right
would 
cause the effect you're seeing.

Larry Coen
N136LC




From: Geoff Gerhardt 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:37 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency 
persists

Alex/Steve, 


That was my first thought, too, but in order to get it to fly level, 
pressure on the stick is needed to keep the ailerons to neutral.  If I let 
the stick go, the left aileron wants to come up, right goes down.  If it 
were a wing shimming issue, I'd expect that the ailerons would need to be
pushed 
into a non-neutral position to counteract the effect of improperly aligned 
wings. 


Before flying the plane, my ailerons were positioned so that the trailing 
edges were level with the wings.  After the third flight when I noticed 
this left roll tendency, I adjusted them so they drooped ~1/8".  I think it 
helped a little, but did not eliminate the left roll tendency.


Geoff


On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
wrote:


  
  
  Possibly 
  the wings need shimming
  
  
  From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff 
  Gerhardt
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:38 PM
To: 
  Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
  
Subject: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency 
  persists
  
  
  Guys,
  
  
  
  
  
  I went on my fourth test flight this afternoon.  Still 
  have butterflies before the flight and check things over like I have OCD
(yes, 
  the canard bolts are still there, for the fourth time...). 
  
  
  
  
  Dealing with a few issues now that I've left the pattern 
  and brought it up to speed.  I noticed on the third flight that it wants 
  to roll to the left.  This is not a yaw (ball's in the center), but a 
  definite roll that requires right pressure on the stick to fly level at
140kts 
  (more pressure for higher speed).  Aileron trim isn't enough to take it 
  out.  On that third flight, when I was flying level at 140ks by using 
  right stick pressure, when I looked back I could see that the trailing
edges 
  of both ailerons were a little higher than the wing.  So, before the 
  fourth flight, I drooped both down so they were ~1/8" below the wing (they

  were level before at rest), but this did not have much effect on the roll 
  tendency (although the ailerons were level or drooping at speed).  It 
  definitely seems to be an aileron issue.  When I'm flying level (using 
  right stick pressure), the ailerons seem to be in an equal position. 
  Letting the stick go, the right aileron comes up, left down and it 
  rolls.  Any other ideas on things to check?
  
  
  
  Slow flight went very well, nice control down to 60kts. 
  Easy 180 turn, then back the other way holding 
  altitude.
  
  
  
  Geoff
  
  




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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 15:16:58 -0500
From: Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: REFLECTOR: Navy Man
Message-ID: <5A62CBAF-9870-445E-9B44-FC70374835F4 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii

You guys know a Navy Man was the first one to step foot on the moon? 
No glass flight decks back then.
An era has ended.

Mark B. Magee
N34XL
Sent from IPhone 4


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:35:58 -0400
From: "Richard J. Gentil" <richard at naples-air-center.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
Message-ID:
    <F3674ACC-E17A-4F9C-9A53-0B42BE2FB26B at naples-air-center.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Geoff,

I would look to the incident angle of your wings, the faster you go, the
pronounced the turning tendency will be. 

Richard 

Sent from my iPhone 4 Classic

On Aug 25, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve korney <s_korney at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Geoff...
> 
> The ailerons are free floating... They should set themselves by
aerodynamic forces of airflow...When you let go of the stick, the ailerons
should take a position on their own and should be the same on both sides no
matter what the aircraft is doing... 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve 
> 
> From: lwcoen at hotmail.com
> To: geoff.gerhardt at gmail.com; reflector at tvbf.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:39:04 -0500
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> 
> Geoff,
>  
> From what you are describing it sounds like the ailerons are being
deflected aerodynamically.  You might want to look at the bottom forward
edge of the left aileron to see if it extends below the lower surface of the
wing when it?s held in the neutral position.  Since the ailerons are hinged
at the top, any increase of drag on the left compared to the right would
cause the effect you're seeing.
>  
> Larry Coen
> N136LC
> 
> From: Geoff Gerhardt
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:37 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> 
> Alex/Steve,
> 
> That was my first thought, too, but in order to get it to fly level,
pressure on the stick is needed to keep the ailerons to neutral.  If I let
the stick go, the left aileron wants to come up, right goes down.  If it
were a wing shimming issue, I'd expect that the ailerons would need to be
pushed into a non-neutral position to counteract the effect of improperly
aligned wings.  
> 
> Before flying the plane, my ailerons were positioned so that the trailing
edges were level with the wings.  After the third flight when I noticed this
left roll tendency, I adjusted them so they drooped ~1/8".  I think it
helped a little, but did not eliminate the left roll tendency.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
wrote:
> Possibly the wings need shimming
> 
>  
> 
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Geoff Gerhardt
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 7:38 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> 
> 
> Subject: REFLECTOR: 4th test flight - roll tendency persists
> 
>  
> 
> Guys,
> 
>  
> 
> I went on my fourth test flight this afternoon.  Still have butterflies
before the flight and check things over like I have OCD (yes, the canard
bolts are still there, for the fourth time...).  
> 
>  
> 
> Dealing with a few issues now that I've left the pattern and brought it up
to speed.  I noticed on the third flight that it wants to roll to the left.
This is not a yaw (ball's in the center), but a    definite roll that
requires right pressure on the stick to fly level at 140kts (more pressure
for higher speed).  Aileron trim isn't enough to take it out.  On that third
flight, when I was flying level at 140ks by using right stick pressure, when
I looked back I could see that the trailing edges of both ailerons were a
little higher than the wing.  So, before the    fourth flight, I drooped
both down so they were ~1/8" below the wing (they    were level before at
rest), but this did not have much effect on the roll tendency (although the
ailerons were level or drooping at speed).  It definitely seems to be an
aileron issue.  When I'm flying level (using right stick pressure), the
ailerons seem to be in an equal position.  Letting the stick go, the right
aileron comes up, l!
eft down and it rolls.  Any other ideas on things to check?
> 
>  
> 
> Slow flight went very well, nice control down to 60kts.  Easy 180 turn,
then back the other way holding    altitude.
> 
>  
> 
> Geoff
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> 
> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html 
> _______________________________________________ To change your email
address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the
gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new
archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives:
http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> 
> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
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_______________________________________________
Visit the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose

End of Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 112
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_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html

 

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Visit the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose

End of Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 117
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_______________________________________________
Visit the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose

End of Reflector Digest, Vol 89, Issue 118
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