REFLECTOR: Pilots report cockpit power failures

Thu Aug 23 08:40:40 CDT 2012

Nick,

I could not agree with you more. I see this with students that trained on glass for their PPL and come to us for their IR. They have no situational awareness because the EFIS did all of it for them. 

We teach private with steam and when they do the cross countries, with have specific aircraft without a GPS specifically for that reason. 

We teach the IR on steam and GPS until stage III of the 141 course (By this point they have learned good situational awareness and how to shoot approaches) at which time we put them in an Avidyne Cirrus SR20-GTS.  The reason we use the Avidyne is because it is closer to the avionics in the A320 and B737NG then the G1000.  In the Cirrus they learn advanced avionics to complete their IR. 

Richard 

Sent from my iPhone 4 Classic

On Aug 23, 2012, at 9:12 AM, Jones Nick <nick.jones at volvo.com> wrote:

> I have to inject here that Boeing is becoming very automated and not immune to dark cockpits. A very good friend of mine is a FO on a 757-200 and had his dark cockpit moment over the North Atlantic in the middle of the night. The Captains panel looked the same.
>  
> <image003.jpg>
>  
> I was in the local FBO the other day and noticed a flight student planning her cross country. We have a very easy cross county in SE Virginia because we have major roads going straight to the three points of the triangle CPK, EMV, RIC, CPK. I asked if she was going IFR (I follow roads)? Her answer took be back, she said all she was doing was putting in the coordinates in the G1000 equipped 172 and the airplane would take her there. Not only are aircraft becoming more automated, we are training the next generation to depend on it. IMHO, we have double trouble. We have airplanes that are built to think for us AND we are training the next generation to depend on it!
>  
> Best regards,
> Nick
>  
> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
> Albert Einstein
>  
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 7:18 AM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Pilots report cockpit power failures
>  
> Yea, we don’t want to cause any further damage to the engine- that could be costly! Better to just shut it down to idle and force the aircraft to land immediately- we are genius programmers! Now what is our next project?
> If they were out of range of the Hudson, and had to land in Manhattan, or downtown Newark,  it would have been a much different, and tragic story…….
>  
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:52 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Pilots report cockpit power failures
>  
> Hi Richard,
> I love the Reflector, I learned something new.
> So correct me if I'm wrong, a software parameter prevented the flightcrew from getting what thrust the engines could produce despite the damage, for the program over-rode the throttle position asked for and selected FLIGHT IDLE to prevent further damage? This is the same fly-by-wire bad programming that sent that Airbus into the trees on a low pass at the Paris Air Show years ago.
> That almost cooked Sully's goose.
> 
> Let me see if I can capture my thoughts on this;
> 
> 'If it ain't Boeing, I ain't Going!'
> 
> I think that says it.
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Richard J. Gentil <richard at naples-air-center.com> wrote:
> Mark,
>  
> The difference is with Airbus, if the A320 systems detect damage to an engine, the system takes the engine and puts it in idle not to further damage the engine. Boeing does not do this. 
>  
> While the engines would develop anything close to full power with a B737 they would have been able to get enough thrust to make it to Teterboro. 
>  
> If you listen to the CVR, Sully and Skiles spent most of their time to getting the engines out of idle before landing in the Hudson. 
>  
> Richard 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4 Classic
> 
> On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:29 PM, Mark Magee <edjonesbrady at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Richard,
> I didn't know Rolls or GE had developed a Goose-Proof engine. Or rather a Flock-O-Geese-Proof engine. 
> The Frogs tried the 'Foie Gras' engine which was a proven failure.
> Funny enough, with the Foie Gras you were supposed to be able to eat the goose after it passed through the engine. The engine was to literally cook your goose...
> Those Frogs! Had it only worked!
> 
> Mark Magee
> N34XL
> 
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Richard J. Gentil <richard at naples-air-center.com> wrote:
> Well if Sully had been flying a Boeing and not an Airbus, no one would know his name. 
>  
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