REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging (Reflexing)
John Dibble
aminetech at bluefrog.com
Thu Apr 26 10:40:46 CDT 2012
Without knowing it, I think I've already done the testing for you. When
I bought my plane the ailerons were 1/4" up. I flew that way several
years with no problems. However I had nothing to compare with. Then
after the discussion several months ago, I changed mine to 1/16" up.
That resulted in a more sluggish response, but more stable tracking. I
think I picked up a few knots, which is contrary to what your article is
saying. I think Larry Coen's comments that a neutral position (when in
flight) will give the least drag is the best explanation. I see no
concerns if you want to experiment and position the ailerons up. It's
more responsive, which I like . However I prefer the stability (and
greater speed?) more.
John
On 4/26/2012 9:58 AM, Ron VelocityXLFG wrote:
> http://www.angelfire.com/on/dragonflyaircraft/reflexing.html
> <http://www.angelfire.com/on/dragonflyaircraft/reflexing.html>
> I know there are people with way more understanding of this than me .
> I only entertain the idea
> because the web sit speaks of gaining 10- 60 knots in theory .
> Reflexing the ailerons
> would be a fairly easy modification . If you could gain this kind of
> speed with the same HP
> and set the system up so as to remove the reflex of the ailerons as
> the plane slows down why not
> give it a try.
> Yes deep stall is very possible and maybe the whole reason not to do
> this but what if you could
> rig the system to remove the reflex in the system quickly and would
> also automatically removed
> the reflex if the plane is under some predetermined speed. With a
> gain of 10 knots with the same
> HP sounds real enticing.
> No I am not trying this just entertaining the idea. I do not own a
> Parachute so I will only entertain the idea
> for now. Has any one looked into this and would like to share.
> Ron
> *From:* Alex Balic <mailto:velocity_pilot at verizon.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2011 9:27 PM
> *To:* 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
> *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging (was another Velocity in the air)
>
> Reflexing the ailerons will reduce drag- for a more detailed
> explanation of why this is see this:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/on/dragonflyaircraft/reflexing.html
>
> it uses a Dragonfly canard aircraft to illustrate the aerodynamics,
> but it is the same with the Velocity.
>
> Having the ailerons drooped is like flying with flaps deployed all of
> the time-
>
> *From:*reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Scott Baker
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2011 6:34 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Another Velo in the air
>
> Looks like contributions to this discussion are dealing with two
> issues ...
>
> the first deals with aileron balancing (trailing edge up is good;
> trailing edge down is bad) ...
>
> the other deals with aileron rigging (trailing edge down offers better
> stable handling; trailing edge up offers lively roll response).
>
> Scott B.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Michael Watson <mailto:mikewatsspg at gmail.com>
>
> *To:*Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
>
> *Sent:*Friday, December 02, 2011 6:37 PM
>
> *Subject:*Re: REFLECTOR: Another Velo in the air
>
> Mine has been down a 1/4 inch for over twelve years and I have had
> no problems with stability.
> When the test pilot came up from Velocity to do my first flight,
> the first thing he had me change
> was to move them from level with the wings to 1/4 inch down. He
> claimed that if they were up,
> the leading edge would protrude below the wing and cause yawing.
>
> Joel who owned a XL was having problems with unstable landings. I
> re-adjusted his ailerons
> to 1/4 inch down and that solved his problem.
>
> John, I think you are referring to initial balancing of the
> ailerons without the cables connected
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net
> <mailto:scott at tnstaafl.net>> wrote:
>
> Mine are rigged up also, per two different velocity factory a&p's
>
>
>
> aminetech at bluefrog.com <mailto:aminetech at bluefrog.com> wrote:
>
> Mine are both 1/4" UP with no issues. Rigging them both up was
> mentioned several years ago (see below). Should I change them?
>
> Subject:
> Re: REFLECTOR:AILERON CONTROL FORCE
> Date:
> Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:57:26 -0500
> From:
> "Scott Baker" <sbakr at comcast.net
> <mailto:sbakr at comcast.net>>
> Reply-To:
> reflector at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
> To:
> <reflector at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
> References:
> 1 , 2
>
>
> I wanted to offer a clarification to an earlier post where I said ...
>
> "How are the ailerons balanced? Do they droop below the
> trailing edge of the wings and is their movement almost
> 'frictionless'?"
>
> When properly balanced, the trailing edge of the ailerons should rise
> slightly above the trailing edge of the wings. I was wanting to say
> that IF
> the ailerons on Tom's aircraft drooped below the trailing edge of the
> main
> wings, then this is a problem. Besides inviting flutter, an aileron
> that is
> not balanced may also contribute to greater stick forces - which is
> what we
> are trying to trouble shoot from Tom's message.
>
> Scott B.
>
>
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>
> --- john at velocityaircraft.com <mailto:john at velocityaircraft.com>
> wrote:
>
> From: "John Abraham" <john at velocityaircraft.com
> <mailto:john at velocityaircraft.com>>
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Another Velo in the air
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 07:49:54 -0500
>
> Dave,
>
> SE and XL's should have ailerons drooped 1/8" down. What your
> pilot was experiencing was the leading edge of the ailerons
> grabbing the air and pulling on the stick. You can't find the
> centering point very well with this. The other thing to look at
> is if the leading edge has any sharp edges on it. You want the
> leading edge to be rounded so it doesn't grab the air.
>
> John
>
> *From:*reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>
> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Martin
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:54 PM
> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Another Velo in the air
>
> I hired John Abraham, Velocity Chief Pilot, to conduct my first
> flights. He and I spent a couple hours doing fine tuning on the
> aileron and elevator rigging. I think you should talk with John
> about your dutch roll and any fine tuning you might do to make
> sure the ailerons are rigged properly. I also had some nose wheel
> shimmy - we kept tightening the castle nut until it went away. We
> went well past the 15 lbs recommended - perhaps as much as 20-25
> lbs. on my fixed gear.
>
> Good luck - I'm sure the factory team can help you figure it out.
>
> Dennis
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 8:42 PM, David Ullman
> <ullman at robustdecisions.com <mailto:ullman at robustdecisions.com>>
> wrote:
>
> N-444DX, an SEFG took to the air for its first flight today after
> 5+ years
> of work. With Jorge Bujanda's flight, that makes two planes this
> week. I
> hired a test pilot, Robin Reid (30,000+ hours in over 300 types of
> aircraft,
> owner of a VarEZ for 5 years, and he flew a Velocity (Thanks Mel
> Rudin) just
> two weeks ago) and I am glad I did. Most everything worked well
> which was a
> relief since I had been concerned about the engine that I built from a
> basket case, brakes heating, and nose wheel shimmy, but none of
> these were a
> problem. But,I do seem to have a roll control problem that I will
> work out
> over the next couple of days (starting with a call to Velocity
> tomorrow AM).
>
>
> It seems that right after take-off Robin experienced a severe
> Dutch roll
> problem whenever he input any aileron control. This seemed to
> increase with
> speed so he went around a big circle with rudder only and the ailerons
> locked neutral. He kept the speed under 120kts and landed at about
> 100kts.
> After taxiing it bask to the hangar I measured the following:
>
> If I push down and let go, both ailerons fare even with the wings.
> If I push up on one, it will stay up due to friction about .35"
> above the
> wing when the other is even with its wing.
> If I push up hard on one I can flex it to .550"
>
> The reason for this test is the thought that the air loads are
> pushing them
> both up, but this does not explain the Dutch roll (maybe?).
>
> I measured the incidence of both wings at five different locations
> with an
> angle measuring device and found that most values were within a
> degree of
> each other (within the tolerance of the device).
>
> I had a colleague put a resisting force on the ailerons and moved the
> control stick and all seemed normal.
>
> One thing I haven't checked is the gap between the wing and the
> aileron.
> This was on spec early on, but there has been paint and other
> finishing
> since then. I will measure that tomorrow.
>
> Anyone else have a Dutch Roll problem? I am calling Velocity
> tomorrow AM to
> get their input on this, but other ideas are more than welcome.
>
> David Ullman
> N-444DX Velocity
> EAA 292 President
> david at davidullman.com <mailto:david at davidullman.com>
> 541-754-3609
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> All the best,
> Dennis
>
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>
>
> --
> Mike W.
> 1997 Velocity Elite RG
> Franklin /IVO Electric CS
> Dual GRT EFIS HX Synthetic Vision
>
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