REFLECTOR: Damper

Thu Sep 1 07:48:51 CDT 2011

John-

  You can put me down for one of the dampers also.

  Velocity has held your stated “opinion” for several years which I truly
have attempted to respect the last few years.  But the reason I state it’s
an opinion is there has never been any published engineering which actually
supports the claim and there has been a large number of incidents.  Now I
fully appreciate Velocity’s right to protect it’s intellectual property but
given the propensity for the situation to occur it would be in Velocity and
communities best interest to explain with real data why it’s so important to
make the angle “x” or the nut tension “y” because the design has this much
“z” amount of margin.

  I can also appreciate that just as there are “mild to wild” variations in
build techniques the same is true of pilot techniques.  But as engineers we
are responsible to explain to the pilot community what the limits of the
design are before we tell them they are “poor” pilots for operating outside
the design limits.  Is the Velocity pilot community operating outside of the
current design limits?  What are the current design limits for the FG nose
gear? 10 degrees, 1 degree or 0.1 degree of alignment with velocity vector
of the aircraft?

  I was taught to fly my Velocity at the factory.  Which explained the
proper cross wind technique to be crab into the wind in order to track
extend centerline on final and during the flare maneuver return aircraft
heading to runway heading while simultaneously arresting any roll caused by
this maneuver.  By definition, even if the nose gear is held off during
initial touchdown this will result in cross wind drift which has the higher
potential for the nose gear to touch down at an angle not in line with the
velocity vector of the aircraft.  Is this not the recommended cross wind
landing technique?

  Also, given the current factory recommended nose gear nut tension I
believe that is quite possible, regardless of flying technique that the nose
gear will be mis-aligned with aircraft centerline because of the high
break-out force required to move the gear.  But this goes back to the
question above is 5 degrees acceptable or is it 0.5 degrees?  I would
contend that 5 degrees is required for “most” pilots and if the design can
not accommodate that, then there should be provisions in the design to
return the nose gear to center.

  Okay, with all that being said I realize that Velocity is NOT Cessna and I
don’t want them to be.  I love the Velocity, I love the flexibility &
freedom that amateur aviation gives us, and I appreciate the unique business
that the Velocity factory has to operate in.  Please do not construe my
comments as a “flame war”.  But rather constructive criticism to the
argument presented and a desire to further understand or appreciate the
sensitivity of the design if it truly is “pilot error”.

Craig

  _____  

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of John Abraham
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 5:04 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Damper

About 99.9% of the time a shimmy is caused by the pilot.  Watching most
people land their aircraft and talking to them after about how they landed,
they will tell you they held the nose off perfect and are getting the feel
for the aircraft.  However, if you watch most people’s first touchdown the
nose makes contact with the ground and bounces as they “hold” the nose off.
This may or may not lead to structural fatigue.  Nut tension does have a lot
to do with this.  However; even if you have proper tension and strike the
nose down crooked, you increase the chances of a shimmy.  The FG’s using a
wheel pant become at higher risk for two reasons.  The weight behind the
pivot point making the shimmy possibility worse and laziness.  I don’t mean
lazy as flying technique, I mean as human nature everyone with wheel pants
on while flying across the country on a trip will go out and pre-flight the
aircraft before their last leg of the trip and test the nose gear tension
and if it is loose will say “it is good until I get home” because they don’t
want to remove the wheel pant.

Anyone that has experienced a shimmy will tell you that it feels like it
takes forever to stop the aircraft and something that you don’t want to go
through again.  There is an owner that actually caught a nose gear shimmy
with a winglet camera, I will see if I can get them to post it so you can
see what the nose wheel on your aircraft does when it happens.

As for the damper system, it should considerably reduce the probability of a
shimmy with your aircraft.  It works on motorcycles racing at 200MPH.  But
there’s always a but.  The weak point in the system is the damper pin.  It
is designed to shear if too much load is put onto the system so that it
doesn’t destroy the entire thing.  This will only happen if you go past the
travel limit of the damper.  In the fork stop limits will also be installed
to help prevent this.  For all FG owners that are going to install this
system.  It is recommended to use red line tape on the outside of your wheel
pant marking the limits so people that don’t know you have it installed
don’t try to kick the wheel around and break the stops or damper.

I will have a final price for everyone by the end of the week for the
systems.  Price driver is how many damper systems I can order as we get a
price break around 10 I think.

John Abraham

Chief Pilot; Executive V.P. Sales and Marketing

velocity-logo

P: (772) 589-1860                                         200 W. Airport Dr.

F: (772) 589-1893                                         Sebastian, FL
32958

www.velocityaircraft.com

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Craig and Denise Woolston
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:37
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Damper

I agree with Andy, everything in aircraft design is a compromise.  But, one
small disagreement though, some of which is antidotal, some hard
engineering.  I’ve had three “shimmy events” on my XL-FG in 4 years
(650hours).  The first I wasn’t smart enough to measure nut tension after to
“prove” that is was fine and I was a beginner Velocity pilot so you might be
able to contribute that to “pilot technique” but I would argue that last two
were not pilot technique errors.  The next two the tension was accurate, the
problem is each of our planes is built slightly different based on
measurement guidelines from the factory but the shimmy equations of motion
and whether the system is stable our unstable is highly dependent on small
differences in geometry, which is why people have had difference results.
There is also a difference in a limit cycle oscillation shimmy event which
is what most people experience with a “loose” nose gear nut and I believe is
more prevalent on the RGs because of the geometry difference (go read the
papers if you don’t believe us) and is stable and a divergent oscillation
shimmy event which is what I’ve had on the last two which result in the nose
wheel completing 360 degrees of rotation, obviously unstable.  Andy’s right,
I never want to do that again.  I’ve shed nose gear pant parts during these
events and got lucky they didn’t take out that expense rotating composite
part on the back of the aircraft, not to mention I believe it could lead to
nose gear failure.  Which is what is in video footage of this phenomena on
youTube in believe or not a canard type aircraft and nose gear fails.  So, I
politely disagree with Andy’s statement that the current system works, the
current design is not robust enough to variations in aircraft build,
aircraft load configurations and real world flight test.

Craig

  _____  

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Andy Millin
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 8:28 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Damper

The damper is like everything on an airplane; a compromise.

My motivation comes in large part from talking with those that have had a
shimmy.  Those that have had a shimmy, don’t EVER WANT TO DO THAT AGAIN.

Those that haven’t are not as concerned, or may even see this as frivolous
and unnecessary.  To each his own.

A bad shimmy doesn’t just shake the confidence, it can damage the plane and
possibly leave one stranded.

Scott Swing was sure that proper landing technique can eliminate most of the
shimmy problem.  One must gain the experience first though.  :)

Mark Riley suffered a bad shimmy incident with his XL/RG just before coming
to Oshkosh.  The difference between shimmy and no shimmy was ¼ turn of the
nut.

Let me be clear.  I believe the current setup works.  One must check the nut
tension as part of the pre-flight.  Forgetting once can be unforgiving.

The new damper costs more, weighs more, and adds complexity.  Like most
stuff in aviation.  It also provides positive damping and improved ground
handling. 

Andy

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Douglas Holub
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 10:06 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Damper

Before I started flying I installed a locking pin a la Mishler on my Cozy
nose wheel just in case there were any shimmy problems. My design wouldn't
let the nose wheel rotate 360 degrees, and it was a nuisance moving the
plane. It sounds like this damper is a good idea, but I'm sure you'll want
to make a tow bar and find a place for it in the plane for traveling.

I never got around to making a tow bar, and then after I started flying I've
never had a hint of a shimmy.  My pre-flight does include checking the nose
wheel for tightness. (If it is not hard to move with my foot it is too
loose), but maybe the more flexible fiberglass strut has something to do
with it, too. 

I removed the locking pin this year, and I love having a full castering nose
wheel again. I hope I'm not putting a damper on this promising damper idea.

Doug Holub

Standard FG with electric nose lift.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Andy Millin <mailto:amillin at sbcglobal.net>  

To: 'Velocity Aircraft <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>  Owners and Builders
list' 

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Damper

Not shown in the picture was the steering limiter.  If you look at the
Damper 3 picture, you’ll see the studs sticking out of the top of the gear
fork.  They are AN-4 bolts that have the heads cut off.  There is a pawl
mounted on the king pin.  The pawl hits the stops before it hits the limits
on the damper.

So, yes, we will need to have some type of steering/tow bar.  This is the
same arrangement that you have on just about all production aircraft.

I would ask John to comment on what it was like to push the plane around
with the damper on it.

I know this solution is not for everyone.  I feel what I am gaining is worth
more than what I am giving up.

You may feel differently.

Andy

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of John Dibble
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 8:58 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Damper

Andy Millin wrote: 

Items of Note: 

                The damper is hydraulic.  It is an arm that sweeps inside of
a pie shaped chamber.  There is enough range to do a single wheel locked
turn.  It will not spin 360 degrees. 

So, pushing the plane backwards won't be easy?

John

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