REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol

Al Gietzen ALVentures at cox.net
Sun Jun 5 00:52:26 CDT 2011


Tom;

 

Looks good - except for specimen #4.  Why would you want it thoroughly
sanded if you were not going to coat it?  You would coat it with
epoxy/cabosil; or just plain epoxy, and leave a smooth surface.

 

Al

 

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Falls
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:48 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol

 

Thanks John/Jim

 

I sanded and pre-coated all the tank parts with an epoxy/cabosil mixture and
then sanded again before install. I then consulted with Scott Swing on an
idea I had and got the thumbs up to proceed. The idea was to apply the Rhino
9700 within 12-14 hours of installing the BID lay-ups on the tank bulk heads
and baffles. The thought is to eliminate the arduous sanding task that I
knew I couldn't do a quality job of in all those tight, hard to get at
spaces.  The ideal scenario would be to get the coating on after 6 hours of
BID curing, but that would make for a very long day. It took my wife and I
six hours to get all bulk heads and baffles installed (right strake only). 

 

With that said, I will do a test with a number of 100 gram fiber glass
samples in E10 mogas, all coated with the Rhino 9700, leaving a small
portion of the fiberglass uncoated:

1.      Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, cured 2-3 days then thoroughly sanded.

2.      Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, thoroughly sanded and then BID applied
and allowed to cure for 14 hours before coating (no peel ply or sanding).

3.      Pre- coated with epoxy/cab, thoroughly sanded and then BID applied
and allowed to cure for 4 days before coating (no peel ply or sanding).

4.      As a control;  Pre- coated with epoxy/cab and thoroughly sanded but
WITHOUT any Rhino 9700 coating.

 

My right tank is a combination of samples 1 & 2. With experience building
the right tank and better planning, the left tank will hopefully be coated
in something less than 14 hours. Sample 3 will be a worse-case scenario for
my install process, and sample 4 should help those that have no coating at
all. It will be a couple of days before I can get started making the samples
and testing will last many weeks (months?) with measurements taken probably
weekly.

Tom

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Agnew
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:33 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol

 

Tom,

 

Many years ago I coated my tanks with Jefco and to this day it looks like
new.  However, I carefully sanded all of the tank including the baffles
surfaces and wiped them down with denatured alcohol and let them dry.  The
Jefco was mixed in 16 oz cups and its working life was about 15 minutes at
the high Florida temperatures.  I didn't use a brush I dumped the cup in the
tank and used a plastic spreader to spread it around so the layer was thick.
I did test strips for a month in straight alcohol with no observed problems.
It worked very well.

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

James F. Agnew

Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com

Tampa, FL

Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying

 

From: John Dibble <aminetech at bluefrog.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy & ethanol

Tom, 

You should weigh the fiberglass before and after to check for weight
gain/loss.  The scale you use should read down to 1% of the sample weight.
Also, the issue may not be just the effect on the coating, but on it's
adherence to the fiberglass.  To evaluate this I suggest you leave part of
the fiberglass uncoated to see if the mogas gets in between the coating and
the fiberglass. 

John 

Tom Falls wrote: 

Thanks John, that is reassuring. Reading that some on this list are having
trouble with the Jeffco after 5-6 years is a concern, especially after I
just finished (yesterday!!) completely coating the right strake with the
Rhino 9700. I think I?ll take a piece of cured fiberglass and coat it with
the Rhino 9700 and then submerse it in 10% ethanol mogas and leave it there
for weeks/months just to be sure. I?ll report back what I find.

Tom 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of John Dibble


Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:14 PM 
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol

Weight gain (or loss) is a measure of the effect of the ethanol.  Zero gain
means no effect and that is ideal.  Weight gain typically results in a
softening of the material.  Weight loss means the ethanol is removing
something, typically plasticizers, making the material more brittle.  The
chart also lists gasohol, which represents a range of ethanol/gasoline
blends, 10% being most common.  Since no weight gain is indicated, it
appears that 10% ethanol should not be a problem.  

John  

Tom Falls wrote:  

I am currently in the process of coating my tanks with Rhino 9700 (formerly
Jeffco ). Although I have no intention of using fuels with ethanol, I do
plan on using 98 octane and 100LL. Attached is the data sheet for Rhino
9700. Under chemical resistance, pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) is listed with
a 6.9% weight gain after 3 weeks. I don?t know if this means a failure or
not . . . . but again it?s 100% Ethanol. Any chemical types out there that
can tell us what ?% weight gain? really means?

Tom

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Velocity 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 2:02 PM 
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol

I had a very similar experience with pump gas. Melted my optical sump sensor


and pealed the jefco  in the sump. I could not tell you if it was the 

Ethanol because they put so much crap in our gas 

here in Chicago. But some thing in the gas station pump gas 

is not good for our tanks. 

The epoxy was not effected by the gas just the jefco pealed. Makes me
question the Jeffco

Ron

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Alex  <mailto:velocity_pilot at verizon.net> Balic

To: 'Velocity <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>  Aircraft Owners and Builders
list'

Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 11:38 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol

I had a similar problem as Chris- although I did not put any mogas in my
mains, I had my sump filled with 89 pump gas for engine testing, and after
about 6 months, I noticed gas weeping from the bottom- so I  pulled it and
the Jeffco had become soft and pasty- not sure what happened there, I
re-built the sump using a new batch of Jeffco, but have been running on
100ll since just to make sure there is no problem?.. I will try the auto
fuel again at some point?

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Laurence Coen


Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 11:16 AM 
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: EZ poxy ? ethanol 

Peter,

You are not the first to warn people about EZ poxy and ethanol and I doubt
that you will be the last.  I refer you to Al Gietzens' email where he has 6
years experiences with ethanol containing fuel in his EZ poxy tanks without
a problem.  I personally tested a strip sealed in a container with denatured
alcohol with no apparent effect after 6 months. Despite all the warnings, I
have never seen or herd of any documented evidence that would indicate that
EZ poxy is adversely affected by ethanol containing fuel.  If you have a
reference, please share it with the group.

Larry Coen

N136LC

From: Peter  <mailto:peter.braswell at gmail.com> Braswell

Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:26 AM

To: Velocity <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>  Aircraft Owners and Builders list

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel Tank Questions

Mark, 

That almost certainly sounds like the EZ poxy that ships with the kit and
NOT Jeffco (the really good stuff). 

My understanding is that the EZ poxy holds up just fine with aviation fuel
but I'd be VERY hesitant to use it in conjunction with fuel containing
ethanol.

I may have missed, but are you flying an auto conversion?

Peter


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On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Markinchampions ?markinchampions at gmail.com?
wrote:

It appears as a dark brownish red color.

Sent from my iPod.  
  

On Jun 3, 2011, at 10:21 AM, ?Al Gietzen? ?ALVentures at cox.net? wrote:  

I don't know what was used. I didn't build it and I'm not that familiar with
fiberglass.  

EZ-poxy is the epoxy system that Velocity sent with the kits; and is most
likely what was used.  Shine a light in the tank ? should be a
yellow/brown/gold color if EZ-poxy, gray if Jeffco. 

Al 

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